X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4328234 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 May 2010 12:26:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.101; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-113-131.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.113.131]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20100527162615H0100jp0sfe>; Thu, 27 May 2010 16:26:15 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.113.131] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP reviisted....now that I know more about it all...kinda. Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:26:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01CAFD97.CE2EC0E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acr9QsSBkQLh1npSRGqG6a1NU3B6/gAdRybQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CAFD97.CE2EC0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are not comparing apples to apples here. We have tried to compare NA engines with similar props before, but this is the first time we have compared turboed and IVOed engines. This should really give us some comparison data if we make certain we know what we are comparing. There is no way that 42" MAP is going to give you 5800 rpm when 35" MAP will give you 6250 rpm with the same prop and psru. By the way, Chris, is your fuel pressure dropping when your rpm drops? If your engine hits an rpm, it should maintain that rpm unless the fuel flow drops. Is it going lean at high rpm? Chris and John, would you guys please give us the particulars of your setups and then maybe some performance data points? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Slade Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP reviisted....now that I know more about it all...kinda. Chris, My rpm doesn't go down at WOT during a runup, but it does hit a ceiling. If I tweak the mixture knob to the right about 1/4 turn the rpm goes up some more. You might try that. There are some differences in our numbers, though - I get about 5800 rpm full fine on a 66" 3 blade IVO with 42 MAP. Part of this could be differences in the aspect ratio of our turbos. You'll also notice that the rpm will climb as your speed builds. My 5800 will translate to 6300 in climb-out and, if I'm heading out of the pattern and there's no 172 ahead, I'll add a bit of pitch to the prop at this point to bring the rpm back down, and the speed up. Regards, John Chris Barber wrote: I know this must have been discussed, but perhaps more in passing or in some of Tracy's literature (now kinda dated, especially with some of the strides he continues to make), but what is the conventional wisdom as to rotary horsepower? I know when I first started looking into it, oh many years ago, it seemed the impression I got was that you could pretty easily achieve 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower. Some of the tricks to get the higher HP was mild and medium porting, bridge, "J" and "P" porting. Then there was the option of turbo...the one, in combination with a medium street port, I chose. What say Ye? When started today, mine was turning about 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3 lb spring in the wastegate).....it surged forward against the chocks and breaks. IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of power even if it likes to heat up fast in 90 degree weather like this. Also, I think this was discussed before too, when I go WOT my engine develops up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops a couple/few hundred rpm to usually just under 6000....sometimes just above. Thoughts? Ed, (perhaps Al)it seems you may have chimed in before. Regrettably, when I search the archives I tend to get frustrated due to thread drift. I heard a lot about porting when I was initially investigating all this and I chose to use a medium street port. I let Mazdatrix do the work. That being said, I have read all but nothing on others porting their engines (other than a LOT from PL on P ports). Since standard porting does not reportedly effect reliability, only, potentially low low idle (I can idle as low as about 1300 rpm when warm smoothly) why is it not discussed and/or utilized more? Just curious guys/gals. Discuss All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight Always loved the lines of a Tailwind - in fact, I have the plans and license to build a W-10 sitting on my book shelf. Unfortunately, I doubt I'll ever get around to it. Ok with thermostat in the system holding it at 190F - we really won't know how much reserve capacity you have in your cooling system until the power goes up. I agree with George, 200HP out of an N/A 13B is really pushing it. I think 180HP is a more realistic expectation - but, hey you never know. It amazing how power goes up when things come together. Enjoy and fly safe. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:36 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight My most humble thank you to flyrotary and all you fine folks that have helped bring my project to flight. Ed and many others whom I won't try to name here because I would miss many. The plane is a Wittman Tailwind W-10, empty wt. is 981 and it is a tri-gear, Wt. is within 6 #'s of similar trikes w/ 0-320 engines. I have the thermostat in the engine because most of the year it is not very hot, if we get 50 days with the temperature over 70, we have had a hot summer, not a lot of beach bunny activity. 7-1 I'll be 74 and have realized my dream, now it's all gravy. Again, thanks guys!! JohnD Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: 3 view w-10 003 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CAFD97.CE2EC0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We are not comparing apples to = apples here.  We have tried to compare NA engines with similar props = before, but this is the first time we have compared turboed and IVOed engines.  = This should really give us some comparison data if we make certain we know what we = are comparing. 

There is no way that 42” MAP = is going to give you 5800 rpm when 35” MAP will give you 6250 rpm = with the same prop and psru.

By the way, Chris, is your fuel = pressure dropping when your rpm drops?  If your engine hits an rpm, it = should maintain that rpm unless the fuel flow drops.  Is it going lean at = high rpm?

 

Chris and John,  would you = guys please give us the particulars of your setups and then maybe some = performance data points?

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Slade
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2010 10:16 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Rotary HP reviisted....now that I know more about it = all...kinda.

 

Chris,
My rpm doesn't go down at WOT during a runup, but it does hit a ceiling. = If I tweak the mixture knob to the right about 1/4 turn the rpm goes up some = more. You might try that. There are some differences in our numbers, though - = I get about 5800 rpm full fine on a 66" 3 blade IVO with 42 MAP. Part of = this could be differences in the aspect ratio of our turbos. You'll also = notice that the rpm will climb as your speed builds. My 5800 will translate to 6300 = in climb-out and, if I'm heading out of the pattern and there's no 172 = ahead, I'll add a bit of pitch to the prop at this point to bring the rpm back down, = and the speed up.
Regards,
John

Chris Barber wrote: =

I know this must have been discussed, but = perhaps more in passing or in some of Tracy's literature (now kinda dated, especially with some of the strides he continues to make), but what is the conventional wisdom as to rotary horsepower?  I know when I first started looking into it, oh many = years ago, it seemed the impression I got was that you could pretty easily = achieve 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower.  Some of the tricks to = get the higher HP was mild and medium porting, bridge, "J" and = "P" porting.  Then there was the option of turbo...the one, in = combination with a medium street port, I chose.

 

What say Ye?

 

When started today, mine was turning about = 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3 lb spring in the wastegate).....it surged forward = against the chocks and breaks.  IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of power = even if it likes to heat up fast in 90 degree weather like = this.

 

Also, I think this was discussed before too, = when I go WOT my engine develops up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops = a couple/few hundred rpm to usually just under 6000....sometimes just above.  Thoughts?  Ed, (perhaps Al)it seems you may have = chimed in before.  Regrettably, when I search the archives I tend to get frustrated due to thread drift.

 

I heard a lot about porting when I was = initially investigating all this and I chose to use a medium street port.  I let Mazdatrix do the work.  That being said, I have read all = but nothing on others porting their engines (other than a LOT from PL on P ports).  Since standard porting does not reportedly = effect reliability, only, potentially low low idle (I can idle as low as = about 1300 rpm when warm smoothly) why is it not discussed and/or utilized = more?

 

Just curious guys/gals.  Discuss = <g>

 

All the best,

 

Chris = Barber

Houston, GSOT

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]<= br> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2010 5:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight

Always loved the lines of a = Tailwind – in fact, I have the plans and license to build a W-10 sitting on = my book shelf.  Unfortunately, I doubt I’ll ever get around to = it.

 

Ok with thermostat in the system = holding it at 190F – we really won’t know how much reserve capacity = you have in your cooling system until the power goes = up.

 

I agree with George, 200HP out of = an N/A 13B is really pushing it.  I think 180HP is a more realistic = expectation – but, hey you never know.  It amazing how power goes up when = things come together.

 

Enjoy and fly safe. =

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2010 2:36 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight

 

My most humble thank you to flyrotary and all = you fine folks that have helped bring my project to flight.  = Ed and many others whom I won't try to name here because I would miss = many.  The plane is a Wittman Tailwind W-10, empty wt. is 981 and it is a = tri-gear,  Wt. is within 6 #'s of similar trikes w/ 0-320 engines.  I have the thermostat in the engine because most of the year it is not very hot, if = we get 50 days with the temperature over 70, we have had a hot summer, not a = lot of beach bunny activity.  7-1 I'll be 74 and have realized my dream, = now it's all gravy.  Again, thanks guys!!  = JohnD

Your message = is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
3 view w-10 003

 

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