X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225859 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:23:59 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100419012324.QNWZ1296.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:23:24 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.169.142]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 7DPP1e00734gpFS03DPP3Y; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:23:23 -0400 X-VR-Score: -130.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=cnbFproiWJRJ9R5Ra84R6dpMd929KZAD6MF01mSBA8Y= c=1 sm=1 a=1AxR2Bxg0C4A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=ZZNEH-WgAAAA:8 a=1oqGTYSLAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=NLcZ0_IdNXFSGa_ovYEA:9 a=k0mnBehDE4my6QAwQjMA:7 a=DwpojRH_50Ja7s0ZkQmoQUmqCuYA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=botiS8bjTA0A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=cvn8laQl214A:10 a=iVP9cB8y6vemmVu9:21 a=S7-LtyktS2fPC3IL:21 a=2Pbv-p0KcJOH3_pRs5AA:9 a=Z0Gk3GGFq3nclrwVuE4A:7 a=9TPdf1bueyRBp3GNucuN1pOrErMA:4 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <28268C0E8F8548F382E0FF5543E2FAC9@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:23:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01CADF24.3BCFEEE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CADF24.3BCFEEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, Thanks for the lead. I'll check with Paul. As Dave alluded to, I "tinkered" a lot before the first flight. Like = you I built, discarded, then rebuilt my cooling system. Unlike you I did = it 4 times before I ever ran the engine. I guess I can say in hindsight = that it was worth the effort because cooling is the one problem I havent = had. All my plumbing is Earls. It is possible to misassemble. The problem = occurred while running on the left tank and cleared immediately upon = switching tanks. There's only one hose in my system that is unique to = the left tank so that should be easy to check. Thanks for the tip. Mike Wills From: shipchief@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Dave & Mike; Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. The lower intake manifold = casting was an offering from Paul Lamar, I don't know if he still sells = them. I also bought his injector mount tubes...which were a bust for = me. Heck, I was just starting and still had to conceptualize the whole = thing. Although I've met PL a couple of times at the Arlington Airshow, = and bought his nice intake casting, I couldn't get much benefit from his = site. Maybe it's just me. Mike; I totally understand the 'tinker factor'. I've changed many concepts = (not just parts) on my plane. I probably should not have built a tuned = intake and also a turbo. I saw a turbo normalized 13b set up by Dave = Adkins (he's in my EAA chapter) that has a very brief intake = manifold...nice & light. But choices made earlier dictate what can be = done after. As for the loss of fuel pressure while in flight,(!!!) You might = consider the possibility that a fuel hose inner liner was skimmed when = assembled to the fitting (aeroquip style) and left a flap on the inside = that could be pulled by fuel flow to close off the hose. Sakskyranch = warns of this, and a Cessna 205 at my local field force landed on the = highway once because of it. -----Original Message----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, Repeat after me: "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly = instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I = will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I will fly instead."=20 Lets face it. You tinkered with that thing for many years. If you were = ever going to get it right you would have done it by now. So quit = trying and keep flying. :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Scott, I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture shows your intake = manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part with a = transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock Mazda = turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something = similar. Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to = rebuild it. Mike Wills From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I say if = it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I first = started flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal cooling = in the air. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the = OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 = minutes. cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and = less than full power in all but the coolest of climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a = different story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure = to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed = from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended = ground runs at or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure have = done very nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! It is = guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told = me that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the = ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to = flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. = I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way = looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and = cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: = http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of = my oil cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru = the oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I = built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial = duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling = problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able to run = for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=E2=80=99m looking for = ideas on how to extend the time for each ground run. I was thinking of = adding a spray bar like others have discussed. My thought was to drill = some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. Then put it = in the intake in front of the radiator. I would have to run the hose = out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t come close to the = prop. I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though. I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and duct = work. Thanks, Chris -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CADF24.3BCFEEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott,
 Thanks for the lead. I'll check with=20 Paul.
 
 As Dave alluded to, I "tinkered" a lot = before the=20 first flight. Like you I built, discarded, then rebuilt my cooling = system.=20 Unlike you I did it 4 times before I ever ran the engine. I guess I can = say in=20 hindsight that it was worth the effort because cooling is the one = problem I=20 havent had.
 
 All my plumbing is Earls. It is possible = to=20 misassemble. The problem occurred while running on the left tank and = cleared=20 immediately upon switching tanks. There's only one hose in my system = that is=20 unique to the left tank so that should be easy to check. Thanks for the=20 tip.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:10 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Dave & Mike;
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. The lower intake = manifold=20 casting was an offering from Paul Lamar, I don't know if he still sells = them. I=20 also bought his injector mount  tubes...which were a bust for me. = Heck, I=20 was just starting and still had to conceptualize the whole thing. = Although I've=20 met PL a couple of times at the Arlington Airshow, and bought his nice = intake=20 casting, I couldn't get much benefit from his site. Maybe it's just=20 me.
Mike;
I totally understand the 'tinker factor'. I've changed many = concepts (not=20 just parts) on my plane. I probably should not have built a tuned intake = and=20 also a turbo. I saw a turbo normalized 13b set up by Dave Adkins = (he's in=20 my EAA chapter) that has a very brief intake manifold...nice & = light. But=20 choices made earlier dictate what can be done after.
As for the loss of fuel pressure while in flight,(!!!) You might = consider=20 the possibility that a fuel hose inner liner was skimmed when assembled = to the=20 fitting (aeroquip style) and left a flap on the inside that could be = pulled by=20 fuel flow to close off the hose. Sakskyranch warns of this, and a Cessna = 205 at=20 my local field force landed on the highway once because of it.


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Apr = 17,=20 2010 11:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Mike,
Repeat after me:  "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will = fly=20 instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I = will not=20 rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I=20 will fly instead."
 
Lets face it.  You tinkered with that thing for many = years.  If=20 you were ever going to get it right you would have done it by now.  = So quit=20 trying and keep flying.  :-)
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:
Scott,
 
I agree with Dave, that looks great. One = picture shows=20 your intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part = with a=20 transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock = Mazda turbo=20 casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something = similar.=20 Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to rebuild=20 it.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said and I = will=20 clarify a little.  I say if it wont cool on the ground, it wont = cool in=20 the air because when I first started flying I had marginal cooling on = the=20 ground and marginal cooling in the air.  At that time I could = idle and=20 taxi indefinitely unless the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi = times would=20 be limited to about 30 minutes.  cooling in the air was similarly = limited=20 to shallow climbs and less than full power in all but the coolest of=20 climates.

However, Chris may be talking about high power ground = runs=20 which is a different story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on = the ground=20 is sure to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary = spray bar=20 fed from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do = extended=20 ground runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just took = another=20 look at your website and picture.  You sure have done very nice=20 workmanship.  I can't wait to see that thing fly!  It is = guaranteed=20 to be one of the fastest RV's around.

--
David = Leonard

Turbo=20 Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> = wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard = told me=20 that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on = the=20 ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up = to=20 flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on = the=20 ground. I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by = the way=20 looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting = and=20 cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727Tracy=20 has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil = cooler=20 duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil = cooler=20 core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built next, = and it=20 worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have = cooling=20 problems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria <candtmallory@embarqmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for = ground=20 runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs now, = and am=20 only able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or = so.  I=E2=80=99m=20 looking for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground = run.  I was=20 thinking of adding a spray bar like others have discussed.  My = thought=20 was to drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden = hose. =20 Then put it in the intake in front of the radiator.  I would = have to=20 run the hose out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t = come close to the=20 prop.
 
I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though.
 
I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my = radiator and duct=20 work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
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