X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225856 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:02:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDF61736AE for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:02:06 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id BB061BEC017 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:02:05 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:02:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CADFAF.C14E85A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100418-1, 04/18/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CADFAF.C14E85A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Can't say as I know exactly. Bill did send me a drawing of a previous = design he was working on some time ago, but I can't find it.=20 Knowing Bill the O ring or rings will be where they need to be. He did = say when Powersport went this way they never had a problem with leaking. Maybe there are two O rings one to join the 2 piece PP insert and one to = seal against the outer housing as it's bolted up. But I'm guessing! George (down under) George, Without reveling proprietory info can you give a hint as to where = the "O" rings are in Bill's P port inserts ??................. -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" = : --------------=20 Mike, I have been a PP convert from the beginning, because of the = additional power gains, however my concerns from the beginning were = fitting of the PP, inlet size and shape and tuning for ram effect. I agree with Lynn on the inlet shape, however oblong is difficult to = achieve for everyone, so the round being next best and is easier to make = and fit, I settled on that. However I still had a nagging feeling that all PP's leak over time = no matter what you do to seal them. This belief as a result of many = discussions with engine rebuilders and racers. Now that Bill has designed the two piece inlet ( redesign of the = Powersport unit) with O ring sealing, I am much happier and will go that = way. I have already placed my order for some. Bill is intending to test the PP size for power as soon as humanly = possible, however it's not the highest priority, at this point in time. The Powersport were a lower reduction unit designed for max power at = 6,000 rpm. I can only assume ( from discussions) their considering = redesigning with a 2.8:1 ratio to take advantage of higher RPM, which = affects a whole range of things - including the PP size ( that certainly = is my suggestion anyway). My guess is a whole lot of work must be done = before they get to that stage.=20 All I can say is wait for the results, I believe you will be = pleasantly pleased with the additional power, my guess is about 230 hp = for a 2 rotor at 7,200 rpm - maybe more at that RPM and to 7,500 rpm. George (down under) Dave, I am going to do something different with the intake at some = point. I cant get the prop RPM that I should be getting in level flight = and I refuse to hack on the prop until I convince myself that there isnt = a little more HP in the engine via a better intake. Also, my current = config wont allow the fit of an air filter and I don=E2=80=99t want to = fly forever without one. So would like to change the config to = accommodate a filter and ram air. I havent decided what route to take yet. Either a better 4 port = manifold or a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how the PP guys make = out (Mark S., how about an update). In either case I'll build it on my = spare engine and get it all done off the airplane so it is plug and play = with minimal down time. I hope to do it sometime next winter. Current status. Havent had a chance to fly again since my loss of = power due to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. Went through the entire = fuel system but didn=E2=80=99t find a smoking gun. Replaced my fuel = filters with some higher flow units, but don=E2=80=99t believe that was = the problem. Replaced my injectors with the original ones I had rebuilt = by RC Engineering. The new injectors flow more fuel so now the tuning is = a little out of whack. Also at the last oil change I switched from a straight weight = mineral oil to Mobil One. Now my previously tight engine leaks like a = sieve. So trying to address numerous oil leaks. But I think I'm getting = close to resuming flight. Oh, one more distraction. Just about into the soaring season so = I'm thrashing trying to get my glider ready for summer. Mike Wills =20 From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, Repeat after me: "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly = instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I = will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I will fly instead."=20 Lets face it. You tinkered with that thing for many years. If = you were ever going to get it right you would have done it by now. So = quit trying and keep flying. :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills = wrote: Scott, I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture shows your = intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part with a = transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock Mazda = turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something = similar. Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to = rebuild it. Mike Wills From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I = say if it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when = I first started flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal = cooling in the air. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely = unless the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited = to about 30 minutes. cooling in the air was similarly limited to = shallow climbs and less than full power in all but the coolest of = climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which = is a different story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is = sure to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar = fed from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do = extended ground runs at or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure = have done very nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! = It is guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard = told me that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power = on the ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come = up to flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the = ground. I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the = way looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting = and cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: = http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross = section of my oil cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly = pass thru the oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water = cooler which I built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard = and tape trial duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have = cooling problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able = to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=E2=80=99m = looking for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground run. I was = thinking of adding a spray bar like others have discussed. My thought = was to drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. = Then put it in the intake in front of the radiator. I would have to run = the hose out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t come = close to the prop. I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though. I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and = duct work. Thanks, Chris -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CADFAF.C14E85A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Kelly,
Can't say as I know exactly. Bill did = send me a=20 drawing of a previous design he was working on some time ago, but I = can't find=20 it.
Knowing Bill the O ring or rings will = be where they=20 need to be. He did say when Powersport went this way they never had a = problem=20 with leaking.
 
Maybe there are two O rings one to join = the 2 piece=20 PP insert and one to seal against the outer housing as it's bolted=20 up.
But I'm guessing!
George (down under)
George,
    Without reveling proprietory info can you give = a hint=20 as to where the "O" rings
are in Bill's P port inserts ??.................
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from "George Lendich" <lendich@aanet.com.au>:=20 --------------

Mike,
I have been a PP convert from the = beginning,=20 because of the additional power gains, however my concerns from the=20 beginning were fitting of the PP, inlet size and shape and tuning = for ram=20 effect.
I agree with Lynn on the inlet = shape, however=20 oblong is difficult to achieve for everyone, so the round being next = best=20 and is easier to make and fit, I settled on that.
 
However I still had a nagging = feeling that all=20 PP's leak over time no matter what you do to seal them.=20 This belief  as a result of many discussions with engine=20 rebuilders and racers.
 
Now that Bill has designed the = two=20 piece inlet ( redesign of = the Powersport=20 unit) with O ring sealing, I am much happier and will go that way. I = have=20 already placed my order for some.
 
Bill is intending to test the PP = size for power=20 as soon as humanly possible, however it's not the highest priority, = at this=20 point in time.
 
The Powersport were a lower = reduction=20 unit designed for max power at 6,000 rpm. I can only assume ( = from=20 discussions) their considering redesigning with a 2.8:1 ratio = to take=20 advantage of higher RPM, which affects a whole range of things - = including=20 the PP size ( that certainly is my suggestion anyway). My guess = is a=20 whole lot of work must be done before they get to that=20 stage. 
 
All I can say is wait for the = results, I=20 believe you will be pleasantly pleased with the additional power, my = guess=20 is about 230 hp for a 2 rotor at 7,200 rpm - maybe more at that RPM = and to=20 7,500 rpm.
George  (down = under)
Dave,
 
I am going to do something different = with the=20 intake at some point. I cant get the prop RPM that I should = be=20 getting in level flight and I refuse to hack on the prop until I = convince=20 myself that there isnt a little more HP in the engine via a better = intake.=20 Also, my current config wont allow the fit of an air filter and I = don=E2=80=99t=20 want to fly forever without one. So would like to change the = config=20 to accommodate a filter and ram air.
 
I havent decided what route to take yet. = Either a=20 better 4 port manifold or a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how = the PP=20 guys make out (Mark S., how about an update). In either case = I'll=20 build it on my spare engine and get it all done off the airplane = so it is=20 plug and play with minimal down time. I hope to do it = sometime=20 next winter.
 
Current status. Havent had a chance to = fly again=20 since my loss of power due to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. = Went=20 through the entire fuel system but didn=E2=80=99t find a smoking = gun. Replaced my=20 fuel filters with some higher flow units, but don=E2=80=99t = believe that was the=20 problem. Replaced my injectors with the original ones I had = rebuilt by RC=20 Engineering. The new injectors flow more fuel so now the tuning = is  a=20 little out of whack.
 
Also at the last oil change I switched = from a=20 straight weight mineral oil to Mobil One. Now my previously tight = engine=20 leaks like a sieve. So trying to address numerous oil leaks. But I = think=20 I'm getting close to resuming flight.
 
Oh, one more distraction. Just about = into the=20 soaring season so I'm thrashing trying to get my glider ready for=20 summer.
 
Mike Wills  

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground=20 runs

Mike,
Repeat after me:  "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I = will fly=20 instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." = "I will=20 not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not = rebuild=20 unnecessarily, I will fly instead."
 
Lets face it.  You tinkered with that thing for many=20 years.  If you were ever going to get it right you would have = done it=20 by now.  So quit trying and keep flying.  :-)
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike = Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:
Scott,
 
I agree with Dave, that looks great. = One picture=20 shows your intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for = the lower=20 part with a transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? = Is it a=20 stock Mazda turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd = like to=20 do something similar. Not real happy with my current manifold = and would=20 like to rebuild it.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground=20 runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said = and I=20 will clarify a little.  I say if it wont cool on the = ground, it=20 wont cool in the air because when I first started flying I had = marginal=20 cooling on the ground and marginal cooling in the air.  At = that=20 time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the OAT was above = 85 or=20 so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 = minutes. =20 cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and = less than=20 full power in all but the coolest of climates.

However, = Chris may=20 be talking about high power ground runs which is a different=20 story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is = sure to=20 push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar = fed=20 from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do = extended=20 ground runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just = took=20 another look at your website and picture.  You sure have = done very=20 nice workmanship.  I can't wait to see that thing = fly!  It is=20 guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around.

-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave = Leonard=20 told me that it's important to get it to self cool at low to = mid power=20 on the ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling = when you=20 come up to flying speed most likely won't work if it = won't self=20 cool on the ground. I took his advise and redesigned my = cooling=20 system, which by the way looks a lot like yours with major = differences=20 being cooler ducting and cooler orientation. He's a link to my = page @=20 EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727Tracy=20 has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of = my oil=20 cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass = thru the=20 oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler = which I=20 built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard and = tape trial=20 duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have = cooling=20 problems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria = <candtmallory@embarqmail.com>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sat, Apr=20 17, 2010 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground=20 runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs = now, and=20 am only able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* = or=20 so.  I=E2=80=99m looking for ideas on how to extend the = time for each=20 ground run.  I was thinking of adding a spray bar like = others=20 have discussed.  My thought was to drill some holes in = some PVC=20 and connect it to the garden hose.  Then put it in the = intake in=20 front of the radiator.  I would have to run the hose out = the=20 front and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t come close to = the prop.
 
I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas = though.
 
I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that = shows my radiator=20 and duct work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
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