X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225600 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:11:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.41; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o3IGAPLF013503 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:25 -0400 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.be2.6b3f6c5b (37128) for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-ma03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.142]) by cia-ma02.mx.aol.com (v128.3) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA022-5c554bcb2ee43cd; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:21 -0400 Received: from webmail-m079 (webmail-m079.sim.aol.com [64.12.141.37]) by smtprly-ma03.mx.aol.com (v128.3) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA033-5c554bcb2ee43cd; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:12 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:12 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 198.238.213.154 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CCAD28C23BEA6A_7CC_2CE2_webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 31423-STANDARD Received: from 198.238.213.154 by webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com (64.12.141.37) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:10:12 -0400 Message-Id: <8CCAD28C234C644-7CC-159F@webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CCAD28C23BEA6A_7CC_2CE2_webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dave & Mike; Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. The lower intake manifold cast= ing was an offering from Paul Lamar, I don't know if he still sells them.= I also bought his injector mount tubes...which were a bust for me. Heck,= I was just starting and still had to conceptualize the whole thing. Altho= ugh I've met PL a couple of times at the Arlington Airshow, and bought his= nice intake casting, I couldn't get much benefit from his site. Maybe it'= s just me. Mike; I totally understand the 'tinker factor'. I've changed many concepts (not= just parts) on my plane. I probably should not have built a tuned intake= and also a turbo. I saw a turbo normalized 13b set up by Dave Adkins (he'= s in my EAA chapter) that has a very brief intake manifold...nice & light.= But choices made earlier dictate what can be done after. As for the loss of fuel pressure while in flight,(!!!) You might consider= the possibility that a fuel hose inner liner was skimmed when assembled= to the fitting (aeroquip style) and left a flap on the inside that could= be pulled by fuel flow to close off the hose. Sakskyranch warns of this,= and a Cessna 205 at my local field force landed on the highway once becau= se of it. -----Original Message----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, Repeat after me: "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead."= "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebui= ld unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily,= I will fly instead."=20 =20 Lets face it. You tinkered with that thing for many years. If you were= ever going to get it right you would have done it by now. So quit trying= and keep flying. :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Scott, =20 I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture shows your intake manifol= d. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part with a transition to= tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock Mazda turbo casting= that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something similar. Not real= happy with my current manifold and would like to rebuild it. =20 Mike Wills From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I say if it= wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I first sta= rted flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal cooling in= the air. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the OAT= was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 minut= es. cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and less= than full power in all but the coolest of climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a diff= erent story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure to push= the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed from a ho= se is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended ground runs= at or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure have done= very nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! It is guaran= teed to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told me that= it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the ground.= He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to flying sp= eed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. I took his= advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way looks a lot lik= e yours with major differences being cooler ducting and cooler orientation= . He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php= ?g2_itemId=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil= cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil= cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built nex= t, and it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, =20 I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able to run for= about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=E2=80=99m looking for idea= s on how to extend the time for each ground run. I was thinking of adding= a spray bar like others have discussed. My thought was to drill some hol= es in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. Then put it in the inta= ke in front of the radiator. I would have to run the hose out the front= and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t come close to the prop. =20 I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though. =20 I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and duct work. =20 Thanks, =20 Chris -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --=20 ----------MB_8CCAD28C23BEA6A_7CC_2CE2_webmail-m079.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Dave & Mike;
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. The lower intake manifold= casting was an offering from Paul Lamar, I don't know if he still sells= them. I also bought his injector mount  tubes...which were a bust fo= r me. Heck, I was just starting and still had to conceptualize the whole= thing. Although I've met PL a couple of times at the Arlington Airshow,= and bought his nice intake casting, I couldn't get much benefit from his= site. Maybe it's just me.
Mike;
I totally understand the 'tinker factor'. I've changed many concepts= (not just parts) on my plane. I probably should not have built a tuned in= take and also a turbo. I saw a turbo normalized 13b set up by Dave Ad= kins (he's in my EAA chapter) that has a very brief intake manifold...nice= & light. But choices made earlier dictate what can be done after.
As for the loss of fuel pressure while in flight,(!!!) You might cons= ider the possibility that a fuel hose inner liner was skimmed when assembl= ed to the fitting (aeroquip style) and left a flap on the inside that coul= d be pulled by fuel flow to close off the hose. Sakskyranch warns of this,= and a Cessna 205 at my local field force landed on the highway once becau= se of it.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 11:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs

Mike,
Repeat after me:  "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly= instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will= not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild unnec= essarily, I will fly instead."
 
Lets face it.  You tinkered with that thing for many years. = ; If you were ever going to get it right you would have done it by now.&nb= sp; So quit trying and keep flying.  :-)
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net&g= t; wrote:
Scott,
 
I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture= shows your intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower= part with a transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a= stock Mazda turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to= do something similar. Not real happy with my current manifold and would= like to rebuild it.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little.  I say= if it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I fir= st started flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal coolin= g in the air.  At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless= the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about= 30 minutes.  cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow cli= mbs and less than full power in all but the coolest of climates.

However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a diff= erent story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure to= push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed from= a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended ground= runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just took another look at your website and picture.  You sure have= done very nice workmanship.  I can't wait to see that thing fly!&nbs= p; It is guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, = <shipchief@aol.com>= wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told me= that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the gro= und. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to flyin= g speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground.= I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way look= s a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and cooler= orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.e= aa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727
Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil= cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil= cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built nex= t, and it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling prob= lems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria <= candtmallory@embarqmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am= only able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so.  I= =E2=80=99m looking for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground run= .  I was thinking of adding a spray bar like others have discussed.&n= bsp; My thought was to drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the= garden hose.  Then put it in the intake in front of the radiator.&nb= sp; I would have to run the hose out the front and clamp it down so it doe= sn=E2=80=99t come close to the prop.
 
I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though.
 
I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radia= tor and duct work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris








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