X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225581 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:40:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100418153952.BSXQ20564.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:39:52 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.169.142]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 73fr1e00834gpFS043frG6; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:39:51 -0400 X-VR-Score: -126.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=b4II0uhcJPnwjva2/FqJSYAtAoopJitAe4Ogu0tU6w4= c=1 sm=1 a=1AxR2Bxg0C4A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:17 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=ZZNEH-WgAAAA:8 a=1oqGTYSLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=T8eBBa5tCErjD0KaIUMA:9 a=dMqhfKWoxnkeWb4uEZ0A:7 a=M2fKNbXeaF3g9-HN0LgHVm9WVhUA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=botiS8bjTA0A:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=cvn8laQl214A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4oNcSFrBzu_F0MpJ:21 a=qtuEiJiPY7UQTeWU:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=zS6KrHJQAoayGdfg390A:9 a=xu2mXjxHJnMDwQHsaBkA:7 a=Xf56YwefMxX8RcXccTWs-W-qCSgA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <0299CD01A4FB4777BABB53FFC014C9EA@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:39:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CADED2.B73E43D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CADED2.B73E43D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, I am going to do something different with the intake at some point. I = cant get the prop RPM that I should be getting in level flight and I = refuse to hack on the prop until I convince myself that there isnt a = little more HP in the engine via a better intake. Also, my current = config wont allow the fit of an air filter and I don=92t want to fly = forever without one. So would like to change the config to accommodate a = filter and ram air. I havent decided what route to take yet. Either a better 4 port manifold = or a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how the PP guys make out (Mark = S., how about an update). In either case I'll build it on my spare = engine and get it all done off the airplane so it is plug and play with = minimal down time. I hope to do it sometime next winter. Current status. Havent had a chance to fly again since my loss of power = due to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. Went through the entire fuel = system but didn=92t find a smoking gun. Replaced my fuel filters with = some higher flow units, but don=92t believe that was the problem. = Replaced my injectors with the original ones I had rebuilt by RC = Engineering. The new injectors flow more fuel so now the tuning is a = little out of whack. Also at the last oil change I switched from a straight weight mineral = oil to Mobil One. Now my previously tight engine leaks like a sieve. So = trying to address numerous oil leaks. But I think I'm getting close to = resuming flight. Oh, one more distraction. Just about into the soaring season so I'm = thrashing trying to get my glider ready for summer. Mike Wills =20 From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, Repeat after me: "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly = instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I = will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I will fly instead."=20 Lets face it. You tinkered with that thing for many years. If you were = ever going to get it right you would have done it by now. So quit = trying and keep flying. :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Scott, I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture shows your intake = manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part with a = transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock Mazda = turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something = similar. Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to = rebuild it. Mike Wills From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I say if = it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I first = started flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal cooling = in the air. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the = OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 = minutes. cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and = less than full power in all but the coolest of climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a = different story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure = to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed = from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended = ground runs at or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure have = done very nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! It is = guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told = me that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the = ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to = flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. = I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way = looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and = cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: = http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of = my oil cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru = the oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I = built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial = duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling = problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able to run = for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=92m looking for ideas = on how to extend the time for each ground run. I was thinking of adding = a spray bar like others have discussed. My thought was to drill some = holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. Then put it in the = intake in front of the radiator. I would have to run the hose out the = front and clamp it down so it doesn=92t come close to the prop. I=92m open to all ideas though. I=92ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and duct work. Thanks, Chris -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CADED2.B73E43D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,
 
I am going to do something different with the = intake at=20 some point. I cant get the prop RPM that I should be getting in = level=20 flight and I refuse to hack on the prop until I convince myself that = there isnt=20 a little more HP in the engine via a better intake. Also, my current = config wont=20 allow the fit of an air filter and I don=92t want to fly forever = without one.=20 So would like to change the config to accommodate a filter and ram=20 air.
 
I havent decided what route to take yet. = Either a better=20 4 port manifold or a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how the PP guys = make out=20 (Mark S., how about an update). In either case I'll build it on my = spare=20 engine and get it all done off the airplane so it is plug and play with = minimal=20 down time. I hope to do it sometime next winter.
 
Current status. Havent had a chance to fly = again since=20 my loss of power due to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. Went through = the entire=20 fuel system but didn=92t find a smoking gun. Replaced my fuel filters = with some=20 higher flow units, but don=92t believe that was the problem. Replaced my = injectors=20 with the original ones I had rebuilt by RC Engineering. The new = injectors flow=20 more fuel so now the tuning is  a little out of whack.
 
Also at the last oil change I switched from a = straight=20 weight mineral oil to Mobil One. Now my previously tight engine leaks = like a=20 sieve. So trying to address numerous oil leaks. But I think I'm getting = close to=20 resuming flight.
 
Oh, one more distraction. Just about into the = soaring=20 season so I'm thrashing trying to get my glider ready for = summer.
 
Mike Wills  

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Mike,
Repeat after me:  "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will = fly=20 instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I = will not=20 rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I=20 will fly instead."
 
Lets face it.  You tinkered with that thing for many = years.  If=20 you were ever going to get it right you would have done it by now.  = So quit=20 trying and keep flying.  :-)
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Scott,
 
I agree with Dave, that looks great. One = picture shows=20 your intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower part = with a=20 transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock = Mazda turbo=20 casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something = similar.=20 Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to rebuild=20 it.
 
Mike Wills

From: David Leonard =
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said and I = will=20 clarify a little.  I say if it wont cool on the ground, it wont = cool in=20 the air because when I first started flying I had marginal cooling on = the=20 ground and marginal cooling in the air.  At that time I could = idle and=20 taxi indefinitely unless the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi = times would=20 be limited to about 30 minutes.  cooling in the air was similarly = limited=20 to shallow climbs and less than full power in all but the coolest of=20 climates.

However, Chris may be talking about high power ground = runs=20 which is a different story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on = the ground=20 is sure to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary = spray bar=20 fed from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do = extended=20 ground runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just took = another=20 look at your website and picture.  You sure have done very nice=20 workmanship.  I can't wait to see that thing fly!  It is = guaranteed=20 to be one of the fastest RV's around.

--
David = Leonard

Turbo=20 Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, <shipchief@aol.com>=20 wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard = told me=20 that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on = the=20 ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up = to=20 flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on = the=20 ground. I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by = the way=20 looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting = and=20 cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727Tracy=20 has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil = cooler=20 duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil = cooler=20 core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built next, = and it=20 worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have = cooling=20 problems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria <candtmallory@embarqmail.com>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, = Apr 17, 2010=20 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs now, = and am=20 only able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or = so.  I=92m=20 looking for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground = run.  I was=20 thinking of adding a spray bar like others have discussed.  My = thought=20 was to drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden = hose. =20 Then put it in the intake in front of the radiator.  I would = have to=20 run the hose out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=92t come = close to the=20 prop.
 
I=92m open to all ideas though.
 
I=92ve attached a picture that shows my = radiator and duct=20 work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
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