X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4192595 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:54:59 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721B4173986 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:54:21 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id D9C64BEC02E for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:54:19 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: More tuning Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:54:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAD239.B3F30EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100401-0, 04/01/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAD239.B3F30EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Probably the most interesting for me would be the length of the inlet = tubes - although this would vary for a PP because the PP is a larger = diameter tube. The smaller diameter tubes would have a greater velocity. = It would be interesting for me none the less. Others running side ports might like some other dimensions. Not taking measurements for a complete cad drawing is an opportunity = lost for some. George (down under) George, No, sorry, I did not take any measurements. Which one would you like and I can see what I can do. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of George Lendich [lendich@aanet.com.au] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 1:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More tuning Chris, Did you do any measurements when you got it - it is a nice piece of = work IMHO. George (down under)=20 Just a data point....I have the Mistral intake if anyone wants to = take a gander at it and try to gather ideas for their own. Of course, = it is installed and I am about ready to crank it all up following some = concentration in other areas for a while. But you are welcome to look. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 9:12 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] More tuning A coupleof sharp motor tuners and a day or so on a good repeatable = dyno can zero in on acceptable intake design that should set a good = baseline for what really works. You can sliderule / use fancy computer = programs and other methods of determining optimum designs but nothing = trumps real time data in a running engine. Just my .02 cents worth. =20 Ben Haas Oh, to have my own dyno again. The point was that there are many rotary engines to think about. Now = days you probably have a 13B side intake port, periphery exhaust, or the = now common Renesis with side intake and exhaust. And now converting both = styles to a home made periphery intake. Neither exsists in nature, so = you may well be on your own tuning wise.=20 Stick to the basics. Velocities reversions, harmonics DIE, radius, = Mach numbers. As in radio wave reception, you are probably operating in = the 1/4 wave regeion. Remember the thing you built in the attic to get = killer reception on the black and white TV? The lower channel numbers = had such a long wave length that it took a big attic to hang just a 1/4 = wave length antenna. And the UHF antenna was just a loop with barely = 12" of wire involved.=20 Remember the Cross Ram Dodges, with 4 barrel carbs hanging outboard = of the rocker covers. 460 foot pounds of torque. The runners were at = least 4 times the length of the dual plane regular manifold.=20 So was the cross ram the full tuned length and the regular street = manifold runners were the 1/4 wave length? Or was the cross ram the half = wave length? Usually the best harmonic peaks will be divisable by 4.=20 So all of this harmonic, standing wave, pulse tuning stuff applies = to one dynamic situation based on that engine RPM. Change the RPM and = everything else changes too. There is nothing static about airplane = engines. So the best guess is to get it close to cruise RPM and then = tune the daylights out of it. The airplane is a kind of dyno. It = provides a variable load. The engine controller provides the tuning = capability. Every flight can be used to recover usefull data.=20 Use the SAE tables to return all data to the SAE standard day at sea = level. Make only one change per test. Record everything. Keep the = records.=20 Or, just copy the Mistral intake. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAD239.B3F30EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Chris,
Probably the most interesting for me = would be=20 the length of the inlet tubes - although this would vary for a PP = because the=20 PP is a larger diameter tube. The smaller diameter tubes would have a = greater=20 velocity. It would be interesting for me none the less.
Others running side ports might like = some other=20 dimensions.
Not taking measurements for a complete = cad=20 drawing is an opportunity lost for some.
George (down under)
 
 
George,
 
No, sorry, I did not take any measurements.
 
Which one would you like and I can see what I can do.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on=20 behalf of George Lendich [lendich@aanet.com.au]
Sent: = Thursday,=20 April 01, 2010 1:24 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More = tuning

Chris,
Did you do any measurements when you = got it - it=20 is a nice piece of work IMHO.
George (down = under) 
Just a data point....I have the Mistral intake if anyone wants = to take=20 a gander at it and try to gather ideas for their own.  Of = course, it is=20 installed and I am about ready to crank it all up following some=20 concentration in other areas for a while.  But you are welcome = to=20 look.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.com]
Sent: = Wednesday,=20 March 31, 2010 9:12 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] More = tuning

 A coupleof sharp motor tuners and a day or so on a good=20 repeatable dyno can zero in on acceptable intake design that should = set a=20 good baseline for what really works. You can sliderule / use fancy = computer=20 programs and other methods of determining optimum designs but = nothing trumps=20 real time data in a running engine. Just my .02 cents=20 worth.
 
Ben Haas
 
Oh, to have my own dyno again.
 
The point was that there are many rotary engines to think = about. Now=20 days you probably have a 13B side intake port, periphery exhaust, or = the now=20 common Renesis with side intake and exhaust. And now converting both = styles=20 to a home made periphery intake. Neither exsists in nature, so you = may well=20 be on your own tuning wise.
 
Stick to the basics. Velocities reversions, harmonics DIE, = radius, Mach=20 numbers.  As in radio wave reception, you are probably = operating in the=20 1/4 wave regeion. Remember the thing you built in the attic to get = killer=20 reception on the black and white TV? The lower channel numbers had = such a=20 long wave length that it took a big attic to hang just a 1/4 wave = length=20 antenna.  And the UHF antenna was just a loop with barely 12" = of wire=20 involved.
 
Remember the Cross Ram Dodges, with 4 barrel carbs hanging = outboard of=20 the rocker covers. 460 foot pounds of torque. The runners were at = least 4=20 times the length of the dual plane regular manifold.
 
So was the cross ram the full tuned length and the regular = street=20 manifold runners were the 1/4 wave length? Or was the cross ram the = half=20 wave length? Usually the best harmonic peaks will be divisable by 4. =
 
So all of this harmonic, standing wave, pulse tuning stuff = applies to=20 one dynamic situation based on that engine RPM. Change the RPM and=20 everything else changes too. There is nothing static about airplane = engines.=20 So the best guess is to get it close to cruise RPM and then tune the = daylights out of it. The airplane is a kind of dyno. It provides a = variable=20 load. The engine controller provides the tuning capability. Every = flight can=20 be used to recover usefull data.
 
Use the SAE tables to return all data to the SAE standard day = at sea=20 level. Make only one change per test. Record everything. Keep the = records.=20
 
Or, just copy the Mistral intake.
 
Lynn E.=20 Hanover
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