X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s3.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.78] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4191158 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:50:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.190.78; envelope-from=stol83001@live.com Received: from BAY143-W20 ([65.54.190.125]) by bay0-omc2-s3.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:49:47 -0700 Message-ID: Return-Path: stol83001@live.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2aa426fc-30a3-437f-a23e-0d69f31b2b84_" X-Originating-IP: [75.163.10.203] From: ben haas To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuned lengths? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:49:47 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2010 23:49:47.0642 (UTC) FILETIME=[D89D15A0:01CAD12C] --_2aa426fc-30a3-437f-a23e-0d69f31b2b84_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup.... But. The design parameters are alot different for an application th= at need usable power from 1500 to 9000 rpm=2C Like in a car.. We only need = good performance around 5500 - 7000=2C plus or minus a little=2C=2Cwho the= heck cares how the thing idles or pulls strong at 8900. . That narrow powe= rband for aircraft applications is what I was speaking about. YMMV Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com =20 To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net From: lendich@aanet.com.au Date: Thu=2C 1 Apr 2010 07:55:40 +1000 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuned lengths? Ben=2C I agree tuning is necessary all designs are slightly different. On the subject of intake design=2C I don't think Mazda came up with their f= ancy Renesis intake by chance=2C I'm pretty sure that would be a computer p= roven design=2C well before production. George (down under) Lynn does such a great job at painting a very clear picture of the dynamics= of an internal combustion engine.. Thank you sir... As a side note those o= f us using an engine in close to a steady state application are very lucky= because tuning the intake is alot easier then in a application that has a = wide powerband range. A coupleof sharp motor tuners and a day or so on a go= od repeatable dyno can zero in on acceptable intake design that should set = a good baseline for what really works. You can sliderule / use fancy comput= er programs and other methods of determining optimum designs but nothing tr= umps real time data in a running engine. Just my .02 cents worth. =20 Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Wed=2C 31 Mar 2010 01:09:18 -0400 From: lehanover@gmail.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Tuned lengths? A "tuned" intake covers a wide Varity of techniques ranging for Hermholtz= =2C RAM=2C Dynamic Intake=2C Inertia=2C etc=2C. There are basically three conc= eptually different approaches although they tend to merge under certain conditions. You have the resonant tuning=2C the pulse tuning and the inertia turning concepts. However=2C truth be known all three phenomena occur in most inta= ke systems - it's a matter of emphasis. The thing that really complicates it is the fact that within any induction or exhaust system you have Finite Amplitude Waves - the power of these puls= e makes a 135 db sound wave very puny - these pulses can actually pound metal apart. They do not interact linearly as do "sound waves" - in fact they ca= n respond in what at first seems to be weird ways. For instance they may reverse there "polarity" depending on whether they encounter an open or closed termination. It has only been with the advent of digital computers has it been practical to even try and model the effects of these waves in an induction system. I find them fascinating. Here are a few references that some of you might find interesting. http://home.earthlink.net/~redcat/pulse_ram/theory.html http://www.motionsoftware.com/simtech.htm http://www.proracingsim.com/dynomationmainpage.htm http://www.audietech.com/DMfeaturetable.htm Ed Anderson Side intake port engines produce different tuned effects than do Periphery = ported intake engines.=20 =20 Side exhaust ported engines produce different tuned effects than do periphe= ry ported exhaust engines. =20 The most powerfull engine would be the Periphery intake and exhaust ported = engines.=20 =20 Although the intake and exhaust open and close events are reported in degre= es of crankshaft rotation just like a side port engine=2C the periphery ports never actually close. S= o=2C tuned lengths produce bigger changes than in the side ported engine. S= o=2C one end of the tune length is virtually open all of the time=2C and wo= rse one end is exposed to changeing pressures all of the time.=20 =20 The overlap (Intake and exhaust open at the same time) is huge. So exhaust = back pressure can poison the intake quite badly.=20 =20 In the side intake ported engine one end of the column is closed solid by t= he side of the rotor. Intake and exhaust overlap may be minimal or extensiv= e. Column lengths produce crisp tuning. Overlap with peripheral exhaust por= ts may have less effect. Exhaust back pressure can remove much power. =20 Side intake and exhaust Renesis) may have no overlap at all. The center exh= aust ports share an exit that is too large right at the port face. Even wit= h no overlap=2C the intake can be poisoned by exhaust gasses being held in = the chamber by a poor exhaust system. Exhaust system has three outlets =20 Possibly less sensitive to back pressure than other designs When converted = to a Periphery intake port=2C may still have low overlap.=20 =20 Lynn E. Hanover.=20 =20 =20 =20 Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. = =20 _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox= . http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=3DPID27925::T:WLMTAGL:O= N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_3= --_2aa426fc-30a3-437f-a23e-0d69f31b2b84_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup.... But. The design parameters are alot different for an application th= at need usable power from 1500 to 9000 rpm=2C Like in a car.. We only need = good performance around 5500 - 7000=2C =3B plus or minus a little=2C=2C= who the heck cares how the thing idles or pulls strong at 8900. =3B. Th= at narrow powerband for aircraft applications =3Bis what =3BI was s= peaking about. YMMV

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com



 =3B
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
From: lendich@aanet.com.au
Date: Thu= =2C 1 Apr 2010 07:55:40 +1000
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuned lengths?
Ben=2C
I agree tuning is necessary all designs are slightl= y different.
On the subject of intake design=2C I don't think Ma= zda came up with their fancy Renesis intake by chance=2C I'm pretty sure th= at would be a computer proven design=2C well before production.
George (down under)
Lynn does suc= h a great job at painting a very clear picture of the dynamics of an intern= al combustion engine.. Thank you sir... As a side note those of us using an= engine =3Bin close to =3B a steady state application are very luck= y because tuning the intake is alot easier then in a application that has a= wide powerband range. A coupleof sharp motor tuners and a day or so on a g= ood repeatable dyno can zero in on acceptable intake design that should set= a good baseline for what really works. You can sliderule / use fancy compu= ter programs and other methods of determining optimum designs but nothing t= rumps real time data in a running engine. Just my .02 cents worth.
 = =3B
Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com






To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed=2C 31 Mar 2010 01:09:18 -0400<= BR>From: lehanover@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] Tuned lengths?

A "tuned" intake covers a wide Varity of techniques ranging for Hermho= ltz=2C
RAM=2C Dynamic Intake=2C Inertia=2C etc=2C. =3B There are bas= ically three conceptually
different approaches although they tend to mer= ge under certain conditions.
You have the resonant tuning=2C the pulse t= uning and the inertia turning
concepts. =3B However=2C truth be know= n all three phenomena occur in most intake
systems - it's a matter of em= phasis.

The thing that really complicates it is the fact that within= any induction
or exhaust system you have Finite Amplitude Waves - the p= ower of these pulse
makes a 135 db sound wave very puny - these pulses c= an actually pound metal
apart. =3B They do not interact linearly as = do "sound waves" - in fact they can
respond in what at first seems to be= weird ways. =3B For instance they may
reverse there "polarity" depe= nding on whether they encounter an open or
closed termination.

It= has only been with the advent of digital computers has it been practicalto even try and model the effects of these waves in an induction system.&= nbsp=3B I
find them fascinating.

Here are a few references that s= ome of you might find interesting.

http://home.earthlink.net/~redcat/pulse_= ram/theory.html

http://www.motionsoftware.com/simtech.htm

http://www.proracingsim.com/= dynomationmainpage.htm

http://www.audietech.com/DMfeaturetable.htm


E= d Anderson
Side intake port engines produce different tuned effects than do Perip= hery ported intake engines.
 =3B
Side exhaust ported engines produce different tuned effects than do pe= riphery ported exhaust engines.
 =3B
The most powerfull engine would be the Periphery intake and exhaust po= rted engines.
 =3B
Although the intake and exhaust open and close events are reported in = degrees of crankshaft rotation
just like a side port engine=2C the periphery ports never actually clo= se. So=2C tuned lengths produce bigger changes than in the side ported engi= ne. So=2C one end of the tune length is virtually open all of the time=2C a= nd worse one end is exposed to changeing pressures all of the time.
 =3B
The overlap (Intake and exhaust open at the same time) is huge. So exh= aust back pressure can poison the intake quite badly.
 =3B
In the side intake ported engine one end of the column is closed solid= by the side of the rotor. Intake and exhaust overlap may be minimal or ext= ensive. Column lengths produce crisp tuning. Overlap with peripheral exhaus= t ports may have less effect. Exhaust back pressure can remove much power.<= /DIV>
 =3B
Side intake and exhaust Renesis) may have no overlap at all. The cente= r exhaust ports share an exit that is too large right at the port face. Eve= n with no overlap=2C the intake can be poisoned by exhaust gasses being hel= d in the chamber by a poor exhaust system. =3BExhaust system has three = outlets
 =3B
Possibly less sensitive to back pressure than other designs When conve= rted to a Periphery intake port=2C may still have low overlap.
 =3B
Lynn E. Hanover.
 =3B
 =3B

 =3B

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
=
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-m= ail from your inbox. Get started. = --_2aa426fc-30a3-437f-a23e-0d69f31b2b84_--