X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.96.85] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with SMTP id 4128051 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:12:45 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.196.96.85; envelope-from=bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net Received: (qmail 35994 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2010 13:12:10 -0000 Received: from acer7fbfa7e2f7 (bryanwinberry@98.88.56.190 with login) by smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 2010 05:12:08 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: OSuEAS2swBAaBd4uKxevNivslbMG7JXpWjAWZVmoYyRm6qcW_W2VUA-- X-YMail-OSG: kOGvRV4VM1lTIN76kFx0393Y5dpliOzuuDf26X12wTNqkoCzU7jC16o_MbAcljeH99iYhFGHX4se2NtHCFVh__a71A4lmYmvMF1S7OstyZ3gZ__EM.ze3kXn1deHE5_s__YxmF.9al1AoFM5Im0aeyM4PlRlggWVawK.kfV_58kwG4T1BznMB0eYTn8f6zeDoS6TmPrzUtHpC8yZ5tgXrdpE4T_hiDLnJCzt1HOEdcJJFn1HDlDHdvfuTNbQcA0ISSfg1upKd_f_D17AJrICaq_HzPPYrJtuI.C0Dmr39wD1o61zuUnfGEN6Jj6r6sVls3vrfPE7NudSuSPwe9in6Gnh7eh2NWepyvSFzLrjaiX.nIw_9_CQ729tDfwrdjKvNM9K.lhSZw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Bryan Winberry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] James Rotary Cowl for Renesis RV-7A Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:12:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008D_01CAAFA8.E5A4A6A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcqvgOI/cl+utX9sT6SI5LwUbUD9JAAUd1jg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01CAAFA8.E5A4A6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Man, that looks like a ton of work! Thanks for the pics. Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] James Rotary Cowl for Renesis RV-7A Bryan, The front end of the oil and water radiators on my installation are about 6 inches behind the air scoop and about 2 inches above it. My engine combustion air is between the front of the radiators and the inlet scoop. After flying I added a inlet hole in the cowl just below the spinner to feed the combustion air to the engine. (See attached picture) I fiberglass a divider between the top of the cooling scoop and the front of the radiators. This formed a pocket behind the combustion air intake. I mounted a filter box from a Plymouth Neon above the pocket. Air is fed from the pocket into the filter than to the throttle body using 3 " Scat tubing. I also modified the bottom cowl lower surface to force air to flow through the front end of the radiators. This was necessary because tests with a squirrel cage blower showed very poor air distribution - at first most of the cooling air went through the lower rear of the radiators. Bryan Winberry wrote: Yeah, now that you mention it, I think Dennis H. had to put a wall in his inlet. May have to use a NACA duct or just draw air from inside cowl. BW _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of shipchief@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Air Pump Bryan; For myself, I had to separate the air inlets for the radiator and the oil cooler to get the radiator to work. I use the left cowl opening for air to the throttle body, although some of this air also surface cools the engine. I would be concerned that tapping air from the radiator air scoop *might* divert some air required for cooling or disrupt the airflow in the duct and ruin the design airflow. Or not. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Winberry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 8:32 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Air Pump Al, My plan was to pull from the radiator scoop of the Sam james rotary cowl. Do you think this area would be pressurized sufficiently at high speeds? Any significant effect on radiator performance? Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Air Pump Before we get too excited about putting leaf blowers under the cowl; you might consider this. The baseline case here (no blower) is with the plane standing still with at sharp edge intake at the TB - correct? Fairly significant inlet pressure loss for that configuration. You may get a similar increase in manifold pressure by putting a nice bell-mouth entrance on the TB. And you will get a similar increase in manifold pressure with a ram inlet scoop flying at about 160 Kts. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:58 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Air Pump Bill: Thanks to my younger brother who was brave enough (use younger brothers for dangerous stuff) to operate the leaf blower I ran the leaf blower test for the group. I used a fairly new hand held Echo leaf blower Model PB 251 I "borrowed" from my neighbors hangar. Specs - 25 cc 2 stroke, Average Air Volume (cfm-pipe) 390 Average Air Volume (cfm-housing) 509 Maximum Air Speed (mph-pipe) 145 No information on rpm's at these data points were listed. I would guess that the 2 stroke engines are operated between 6000 and 8000 rpm. but I'd like to have real rpm data. Four tests were conducted as shown below. Local air pressure was 30.2 in Baro. - 0.5 in for 1000" = 29.7 in hg. air pressure at field elevation. Weather was Clear, low humidity and 53 deg. OAT. All tests were at WOT. Pictures are attached for each test. Note the 180 deg. bend in the Scat tubing during the (C) test. The (C) test picture was taken after we had taken the Scat tube but my brother was holding it in place. Test condition Static max. RPM Manifold Pressure Engine Temp. (A) Standard intake, 5870 28.9 Barely warm air filter etc. (B) W/O air filter & 5660 28.7 Fully warm prop blast (C) Leaf Blower full 5925 29.9 Fully warm throttle into throttle body - 180 deg turn. (D) Same as (A) 5700 29.0 Fully warm It appears that the blower raised the inlet pressure by 1.2 in Hg. and the engine rpm increased from 5700 to 5925 rpm. I needed to turn the mixture knob slightly richer with the blower running to get max. power. Also note that the tube feeding the intake had to make a 180 deg. bend just before the throttle body. The leaf blower used in this test was the smallest Echo makes. Their web site lists approximately 15 blowers and the largest is a 63.3 cc 2 stroke as follows: Average Air Volume (cfm-pipe) 620 Average Air Volume (cfm-housing) 1240 Maximum Air Speed (mph-pipe) 205 My thought is that several blowers are available that probably would provide the needed blower capacity. I believe we need a system that is adaptable to using Tracy'c RD-1 drive. I also believe it is not likely a centrifugal blower can be placed between the engine and gear box because the spacing between the gear box plate and the engine is about 2.5 inches and the ring gear is approximately in the middle of the space. If someone is interested in adding a direct drive blower why not attach it to the rear of the engine with the centrifugal fan attached to the crankshaft pulley? The fans from the big blowers may have enough capacity to work at our crankshaft speeds. If this could be made to work it would fit the majority of the rotary installations and be an inexpensive way to add More Power Scotty. PS I have all the power I need with my DIE intake - if someone can find a way to build it that may solve most of the power needs. Dennis Haverlah Bill Bradburry wrote: Has anybody ever tried hooking up a leaf blower to the throttle body inlet and see what that would do to the static rpm and manifold pressure at WOT? Bill B ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01CAAFA8.E5A4A6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Man, that looks like a ton of work! =  Thanks for the pics.

Bryan

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Tuesday, February = 16, 2010 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = James Rotary Cowl for Renesis RV-7A

 

Bryan,  
The front end of the oil and water radiators on my installation are = about 6 inches behind the air scoop and about 2 inches above it.  My engine combustion air
is between the front of the radiators and the inlet scoop.  After = flying I added a inlet hole in the cowl just below the spinner to feed the = combustion air to the engine.  (See attached picture)  I fiberglass a = divider between the top of the cooling scoop and the front of the = radiators.  This formed a pocket behind the combustion air intake.  I mounted a = filter box from a Plymouth Neon above the pocket.  Air is fed from the pocket = into the filter than to the throttle body using 3 " Scat tubing.  I = also modified the bottom cowl lower surface to force air to flow through the = front end of the radiators.  This was necessary because tests with a = squirrel cage blower showed very poor air distribution  - at first most of = the cooling air went through the lower rear of the radiators.


Bryan Winberry wrote:

Yeah, now that you mention it, I think Dennis H. had to put a wall in his = inlet.

May have to use a NACA duct or just = draw air from inside cowl.

BW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of shipchief@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February = 16, 2010 1:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Air Pump

 

Bryan= ;=

For myself, I had to separate the air inlets = for the radiator and the oil cooler to get the radiator to work. I use = the left cowl opening for air to the throttle body, although some of = this air also surface cools the engine. I would be concerned that tapping air = from the radiator air scoop *might* divert some air required for cooling or = disrupt the airflow in the duct and ruin the design = airflow.

Or = not.

Scott

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.n= et>
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 8:32 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Air = Pump

Al,

My plan was to pull from the = radiator scoop of the Sam james rotary cowl.  Do you think this area would = be pressurized sufficiently at high speeds?  Any significant effect on radiator performance?

Bryan<= /st1:place>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net] On Behalf Of Al = Gietzen
Sent: Tuesday, February = 16, 2010 11:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Air Pump

 

Before we get too excited about = putting leaf blowers under the cowl; you might consider this.  The baseline = case here (no blower) is with the plane standing still with at sharp edge = intake at the TB – correct? Fairly significant inlet pressure loss for that configuration.

 

You may get a similar increase in manifold pressure by putting a nice bell-mouth entrance on the TB. And = you will get a similar increase in manifold pressure with a ram inlet scoop = flying at about 160 Kts.

 

Al G

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net] On Behalf Of Dennis = Haverlah
Sent: Monday, February = 15, 2010 7:58 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Air Pump

 

Bill: 
Thanks to my younger brother who was brave enough (use younger brothers = for dangerous stuff) to operate the leaf blower I ran the leaf blower test = for the group.  I used a fairly new hand held Echo leaf blower Model PB 251 =   I "borrowed" from my neighbors hangar. 
Specs - 25 cc 2 stroke,

Average Air Volume = (cfm-pipe)

390

Average Air Volume = (cfm-housing)

509

Maximum Air Speed = (mph-pipe)

145


No information on rpm's at these data points were listed.  I would = guess that the 2 stroke engines are operated between 6000 and
8000 rpm. but I'd like to have real rpm data.

Four tests were conducted as shown below.  Local air pressure was = 30.2 in Baro. - 0.5 in for 1000"  =3D 29.7 in hg. air pressure at = field elevation.
Weather was Clear, low humidity and 53 deg. OAT.  All tests were at = WOT.
Pictures are attached for each test.  Note the 180 deg. bend in the = Scat tubing during the (C) test.
The (C) test picture was taken after we had taken the Scat tube but my = brother was holding it in place.

Test condition               Static max. RPM      Manifold Pressure        Engine Temp.
(A) Standard intake,            =    5870                        28.9                    Barely = warm
      air filter etc.

(B) W/O air filter &          =        5660         =                28.7                    = Fully warm
       prop blast

(C) Leaf Blower full                 5925         =               29.9   =                   Fully = warm
      throttle into throttle
      body - 180 deg turn.

(D) Same as (A)            =            5700                       29.0                     Fully warm

It appears that the blower raised the inlet pressure by 1.2 in Hg. and = the engine rpm increased from 5700 to 5925 rpm.
I needed to turn the mixture knob slightly richer with the blower = running to get max. power.
Also note that the tube feeding the intake had to make a 180 deg. bend = just before the throttle body.

The leaf blower used in this test was the smallest Echo = makes.  Their web site lists approximately 15 blowers and the largest is a 63.3 = cc 2 stroke as follows:

Average Air Volume = (cfm-pipe)

620

Average Air Volume = (cfm-housing)

1240

=

Maximum Air Speed = (mph-pipe)

205


My thought is that several blowers are available that probably would = provide the needed blower capacity. 
I believe we need a system that is adaptable to using Tracy'c RD-1 = drive.  I also believe it is not likely a centrifugal blower can be placed = between the engine and gear box because the spacing between the gear box plate and = the engine is about 2.5 inches and the ring gear is approximately in the = middle of the space.  If someone is interested in adding a direct drive = blower why not attach it to the rear of the engine with the centrifugal fan = attached to the crankshaft pulley?   The fans from the big = blowers  may have enough capacity to work at our crankshaft speeds.  If this = could be made to work it would fit the majority of the rotary installations = and be an inexpensive way to add More Power Scotty.

PS I have all the power I need with my DIE intake - if someone can find = a way to build it that may solve most of the power needs.

Dennis Haverlah

Bill Bradburry wrote:

Has anybody ever tried hooking up a leaf = blower to the throttle body inlet and see what that would do to the static rpm and = manifold pressure at WOT?

 

Bill B 

 

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