X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4124924 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:10:36 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7299F173993 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:09:58 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FDDDBEC01C for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:09:57 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <5CAC4BE3080E45C1A8FD2AB09B4A0864@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:09:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01CAAE0D.E1EFAFB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100214-0, 02/14/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01CAAE0D.E1EFAFB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although I have limited knowledge on Turbo, I am with Ed on this one, = if only because of previous discussions and from what Ed has stated. George ( down under) Well, youngster {:>), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination. = IF you are going to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), = then you want a turbo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than = 1.0 in my opinion. =20 The same turbo with a small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less = exhaust/throttle and give you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine - the = problem is you must have some sort of boost control or at WOT the boost = will go high enough to damage the engine. =20 If you use a larger a/r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more = throttle) to produce the boost, this generally means low boost at low = rpm (so not good for that sports car feel), but more most and HP at the = higher rpm where we generally are interested. If you either have an = example to follow (or can work with a turbo seller who will permit you = to swap in/out different a/r turbine housings), you can experiment to = find the best a/r for your installation and operating environment. =20 Another benefit of high a/r is that there is less exhaust back = pressure due to the more open channel through the turbine housing. =20 But, if you are going to try that route, make certain you start out = with an a/r that you are confident is perhaps a tad too large. You can = always put on a smaller a/r to get more top end performance - provide = you have not blown your engine {>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of shipchief@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo =20 Kelly: Don err, SCOTT here ;) IIRC the specs on the turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called = Turbonetics and told them the application was a 13b used as a generator = in a sound proof box that would have quite a pressure drop at the air = filter to overcome.....and be used on top of a mountain...!?! The sales guy assured me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the = ticket.=20 Later I emailed Greg Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running = his Cozy with a 13b Turbo, and he was using the same exact turbo? Anyway, he had some mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at = will, and was looking for more bite. I indicated that I planned to use (some specific) blow off valve and = waste gate, Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your = engine unless it needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out = for lightness and simplicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated = need. How ever that manifests it'self?? Remeber, I have a RD-1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to = keep HP at or below 200. I'm supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have = an intercooler for this reason. Self control will be required. Scott=20 PS. I'm only a few months from turning 55!! =20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 7:31 am Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo Sorry Scott............This was directed at you = !!..................<:) -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" = : --------------=20 Don, Curious what the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine = housing is ?............. Most of the recommendations from those of the group flying ahead or = behind the TO4 range from about .96 to 1.15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in = your rpm/mp numbers when you get airborne................=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from shipchief@aol.com: = --------------=20 Don, I'm just a bit ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on = the rest of the plane. I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running = in the yard with the tail tied to a cedar tree. I'm building an RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust = manifold mounting a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine = housing. The compresor faces forward and a cone shaped K&N filter is = direct mounted to the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped = 2.25" pipe that crosses in front of the firewall and exits out the = center of the cooling air exit (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet = metal ramp. The pipe is supported with a clevis to the engine mount = plate (between the block and oil pan) so it all moves in harmony with = the engine/turbo, yet can grow a bit from heat. So far the turbo muffles = the engine fairly well.....but I have not gone to War Emergency = Power.....yet. I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under = the chin, making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today. the oil cooler is mounted on the right side and uses the entire = airflow from the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for = radiator and oil cooler helped solve my previous cooling failure. I ground ran for 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed = up, and the temps are stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for = the last 5 minutes, the highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, = Oil stable at 172F. Tracy's engine monitor gives direct HP readout based = on fuel flow, so it varies as you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to = about 50HP with firm temperature control. This was very exciting for me = becuase it's enough power that the fuselage is starting to buck and = shake like there might be some power there, and promises of more. I have not done anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air = entering here goes right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the = fuel injectors, turbo assembly, and spills out the bottom with the = heated radiator air. To keep from choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of = making a duct to carry the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, = where I could mount an intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda = intercooler here, I would need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. = The important part of this is cooling the fuel system and isolating the = turbo heat from anything it could damage. Dave warned me of this early = on, and I have not forgotten it. You can see my progress at: = http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/ Constructive comments are always welcome! Scott PS, I'm working very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight = adds up fast! =20 =20 =3D=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01CAAE0D.E1EFAFB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Although I have limited = knowledge on=20 Turbo, I am with Ed on this one, if only because of previous = discussions and=20 from what Ed has stated.
George ( down under)

Well, = youngster=20 {:>), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination.  IF you = are=20 going to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), then you = want a=20 turbo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than 1.0 in my=20 opinion.

 

The same = turbo with a=20 small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less exhaust/throttle = and give=20 you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine =96 the problem is you must = have some=20 sort of boost control or at WOT the boost will go high enough to = damage the=20 engine.

 

If you use = a larger=20 a/r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more throttle) to produce = the=20 boost, this generally means low boost at low rpm (so not good for that = sports=20 car feel), but more most and HP at the higher rpm where we generally = are=20 interested.  If you either have an example to follow (or can work = with a=20 turbo seller who will permit you to swap in/out different a/r turbine=20 housings), you can experiment to find the best a/r for your = installation and=20 operating environment.

 

Another = benefit of=20 high a/r is that there is less exhaust back pressure due to the more = open=20 channel through the turbine housing.

 

But, if you = are going=20 to try that route, make certain you start out with an a/r that you are = confident is perhaps a tad too large.  You can always put on a = smaller=20 a/r to get more top end performance =96 provide you have not blown = your engine=20 {>)

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 shipchief@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 13, = 2010 11:09=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo

 

Kelly:

Don  = err, SCOTT=20 here ;)

IIRC the = specs on=20 the turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called Turbonetics and told them = the=20 application was a 13b used as a generator in a sound proof box that = would have=20 quite a pressure drop at the air filter to overcome.....and be used on = top of=20 a mountain...!?!

The sales = guy=20 assured me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the ticket.=20

Later I = emailed Greg=20 Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running his Cozy with a = 13b Turbo,=20 and he was using the same exact = turbo?

Anyway, he = had some=20 mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at will, and was looking = for=20 more bite.

I = indicated that I=20 planned to use (some specific) blow off valve and waste = gate,=20 Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your engine = unless it=20 needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out for lightness and = simplicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated need. How ever that = manifests it'self??

Remeber, I = have a=20 RD-1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to keep HP at or below = 200. I'm=20 supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have an intercooler for this = reason. Self=20 control will be required.
Scott

PS. I'm = only a few=20 months from turning 55!!

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, = 2010=20 7:31 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to=20 turbo

Sorry=20 Scott............This was directed at you=20 !!..................<:)

--
Kelly Troyer=20
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20


 

--------------=20 Original message from "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>: = --------------=20

Don,

  = Curious=20 what the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine = housing is=20 ?.............

Most of = the=20 recommendations from those of the group flying ahead or behind the = TO4=20 range

from = about .96 to=20 1.15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in your rpm/mp = numbers=20 when

you get=20 airborne................ 

--
Kelly Troyer=20
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20


 

--------------=20 Original message from shipchief@aol.com: = --------------=20

Don,

I'm = just a bit=20 ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest of the = plane.=20 I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running in the = yard with the=20 tail tied to a cedar tree.

I'm = building an=20 RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust = manifold mounting a=20 Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. The = compresor=20 faces forward and  a cone shaped K&N filter is direct = mounted to=20 the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that = crosses=20 in front of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling = air exit=20 (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe = is=20 supported with a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the = block and=20 oil pan) so it all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can = grow a=20 bit from heat. So far the turbo muffles the engine fairly = well.....but I=20 have not gone to War Emergency Power.....yet.
I 'borrowed' = David=20 Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin, making a = fairly=20 generous scoop, which I tested = today.

the = oil cooler=20 is mounted on the right side and uses the entire airflow = from=20 the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and = oil=20 cooler helped solve my previous cooling=20 failure.

I = ground ran for=20 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and the temps = are=20 stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 = minutes, the=20 highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at = 172F.=20 Tracy's=20 engine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow, so it = varies as=20 you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with = firm=20 temperature control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's = enough=20 power that the fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there = might be=20 some power there, and promises of = more.

I have = not done=20 anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air entering here = goes=20 right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injectors, = turbo=20 assembly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiator=20 air.

To = keep from=20 choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duct to = carry=20 the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could = mount an=20 intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here, I = would=20 need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. The important = part of=20 this is cooling the fuel system and isolating the turbo = heat from=20 anything it could damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and I = have not=20 forgotten it.

You = can see my=20 progress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/<= /SPAN>

Constructive=20 comments are always welcome!

Scott

PS, = I'm working=20 very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up=20 fast!


 

 

=3D=20

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