X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4124809 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:19:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.41; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-da04.mx.aol.com (imo-da04.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.202]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o1EJIPFp027040 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:25 -0500 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-da04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d08.725cc7ce (55737) for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-mc02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mc02.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.98]) by cia-md04.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD044-d3d64b784c7b8c; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:23 -0500 Received: from webmail-d046 (webmail-d046.sim.aol.com [205.188.167.96]) by smtprly-mc02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMC028-d3d64b784c7b8c; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:19 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:19 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CC7BC199D2FA2B_21F8_11B0E_webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 30746-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com (205.188.167.96) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:18:19 -0500 Message-Id: <8CC7BC19973C303-21F8-8EC5@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CC7BC199D2FA2B_21F8_11B0E_webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" After this worrysome discussion, I went back to the turbonetics site and= checked the map for my turbo. I'm running so close to the bottom of that map, in terms of both airflow= and pressure ratio, I think I'm plenty safe for ground runs and initial= flights. I'm expecting to run with a pressure ratio of less than 1.2 with= a flow rate of less than 40 lbs. Does that seem right for a 13b at 200 HP= 6500 RPM? My exhaust manifold is fancy looking, but it's a basic log manifold. The= main Y tube from the ports to the turbo flange are very big, 2.5". I installed exhaust nozzle cones inside, to smooth out the transition from= the port to the manifold interior, but mostly to keep the direct heat off= from the turbo flange welds for the main Y pipe. The result is exhaust bl= asting into a log type volume, with a nice Y to collect it and guide it in= to the turbo. I imagine that quite a bit of the sonic pulse is attenuated= compared to a Yaw Turbo header. Less pulse tune and more continuous flow.= ..who knows? Its so short, not much accumulator volume. My turbo manifold supports the weight of the turbo, similar to a stock Maz= da cast iron mainfold. I've added support straps between flanges for addit= ional support. Also, it's easy to remove and inspect, which I have done. -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Feb 14, 2010 7:12 am Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo Scott , Ed , et al , =20 I will echo Ed's opinion about the TO4 turbine A/R ratio (fully= admitting to having having no turbo experience than that of others on the group)..............My junk= yard mock-up TO4 has a turbine housing with a 1.30 A/R ratio (not a "On Center" housing")........= ..If I built a turbo system=20 without wast-gate and/or inter-cooler I would probably start out with a ho= using this "Loose"......... IMHO & FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" : --------------=20 Well, youngster {:>), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination. IF= you are going to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), the= n you want a turbo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than 1.0 in= my opinion. =20 The same turbo with a small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less exha= ust/throttle and give you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine =E2=80=93 th= e problem is you must have some sort of boost control or at WOT the boost= will go high enough to damage the engine. =20 If you use a larger a/r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more throt= tle) to produce the boost, this generally means low boost at low rpm (so= not good for that sports car feel), but more most and HP at the higher rp= m where we generally are interested. If you either have an example to fol= low (or can work with a turbo seller who will permit you to swap in/out di= fferent a/r turbine housings), you can experiment to find the best a/r for= your installation and operating environment. =20 Another benefit of high a/r is that there is less exhaust back pressure du= e to the more open channel through the turbine housing. =20 But, if you are going to try that route, make certain you start out with= an a/r that you are confident is perhaps a tad too large. You can always= put on a smaller a/r to get more top end performance =E2=80=93 provide yo= u have not blown your engine {>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of shipchief@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo =20 Kelly: Don err, SCOTT here ;) IIRC the specs on the turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called Turbonetics an= d told them the application was a 13b used as a generator in a sound proof= box that would have quite a pressure drop at the air filter to overcome..= ...and be used on top of a mountain...!?! The sales guy assured me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the ticket.=20 Later I emailed Greg Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running his Co= zy with a 13b Turbo, and he was using the same exact turbo? Anyway, he had some mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at will,= and was looking for more bite. I indicated that I planned to use (some specific) blow off valve and waste= gate, Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your engine= unless it needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out for lightn= ess and simplicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated need. How ever= that manifests it'self?? Remeber, I have a RD-1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to keep HP= at or below 200. I'm supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have an interco= oler for this reason. Self control will be required. Scott=20 PS. I'm only a few months from turning 55!! =20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 7:31 am Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo Sorry Scott............This was directed at you !!..................<:) -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" : ----= ----------=20 Don, Curious what the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine housi= ng is ?............. Most of the recommendations from those of the group flying ahead or behind= the TO4 range from about .96 to 1.15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in your= rpm/mp numbers when you get airborne................=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from shipchief@aol.com: --------------=20 Don, I'm just a bit ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest= of the plane. I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running in the yar= d with the tail tied to a cedar tree. I'm building an RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust manifold= mounting a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. Th= e compresor faces forward and a cone shaped K&N filter is direct mounted= to the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that cro= sses in front of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling air= exit (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe is supp= orted with a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the block and oil= pan) so it all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can grow a bit= from heat. So far the turbo muffles the engine fairly well.....but I have= not gone to War Emergency Power.....yet. I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin= , making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today. the oil cooler is mounted on the right side and uses the entire airflow fr= om the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and oil= cooler helped solve my previous cooling failure. I ground ran for 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and th= e temps are stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 mi= nutes, the highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at= 172F. Tracy's engine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow,= so it varies as you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with= firm temperature control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's enou= gh power that the fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there might= be some power there, and promises of more. I have not done anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air enterin= g here goes right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injecto= rs, turbo assembly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiator air= . To keep from choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duc= t to carry the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could= mount an intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here,= I would need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. The important part= of this is cooling the fuel system and isolating the turbo heat from anyt= hing it could damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and I have not forg= otten it. You can see my progress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/ Constructive comments are always welcome! Scott PS, I'm working very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up fa= st! =20 =20 =3D=20 ----------MB_8CC7BC199D2FA2B_21F8_11B0E_webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
After this worrysome discussion, I went back to the turbonetics site= and checked the map for my turbo.
I'm running so close to the bottom of that map, in terms of both= airflow and pressure ratio, I think I'm plenty safe for ground runs and= initial flights. I'm expecting to run with a pressure ratio of less than= 1.2 with a flow rate of less than 40 lbs. Does that seem right for a 13b= at 200 HP 6500 RPM?
My exhaust manifold is fancy looking, but it's a basic log manifold.= The main Y tube from the ports to the turbo flange are very big, 2.5".
I installed exhaust nozzle cones inside, to smooth out the transition= from the port to the manifold interior, but mostly to keep the direct hea= t off from the turbo flange welds for the main Y pipe. The result is exhau= st blasting into a log type volume, with a nice Y to collect it and guide= it into the turbo. I imagine that quite a bit of the sonic pulse is atten= uated compared to a Yaw Turbo header. Less pulse tune and more continuous= flow...who knows? Its so short, not much accumulator volume.
My turbo manifold supports the weight of the turbo, similar to a stoc= k Mazda cast iron mainfold. I've added support straps between flanges for= additional support. Also, it's easy to remove and inspect, which I have= done.



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 14, 2010 7:12 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo

Scott , Ed , et al ,
 
           I will= echo Ed's opinion about the TO4 turbine A/R ratio (fully admitting to hav= ing having
no turbo experience than that of others on the group)..............My= junk yard mock-up TO4 has a
turbine housing with a 1.30 A/R ratio (not a "On Center" housing")...= .......If  I built a turbo system
without wast-gate and/or inter-cooler I would probably start out with= a housing this "Loose".........
IMHO & FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;: --------------

Well, youngster {:&= gt;), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination.  IF you are goi= ng to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), then you want= a turbo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than 1.0 in my opinio= n.
 
The same turbo with= a small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less exhaust/throttle and= give you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine =E2=80=93 the problem is you= must have some sort of boost control or at WOT the boost will go high eno= ugh to damage the engine.
 
If you use a larger= a/r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more throttle) to produce the= boost, this generally means low boost at low rpm (so not good for that sp= orts car feel), but more most and HP at the higher rpm where we generally= are interested.  If you either have an example to follow (or can wor= k with a turbo seller who will permit you to swap in/out different a/r tur= bine housings), you can experiment to find the best a/r for your installat= ion and operating environment.
 
Another benefit of= high a/r is that there is less exhaust back pressure due to the more open= channel through the turbine housing.
 
But, if you are goi= ng to try that route, make certain you start out with an a/r that you are= confident is perhaps a tad too large.  You can always put on a small= er a/r to get more top end performance =E2=80=93 provide you have not blow= n your engine {>)
 
Ed
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of shipchief@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February= 13, 2010 11:09 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= N.A. Renesis to turbo
 
Kelly:
Don  err, SC= OTT here ;)
IIRC the specs on= the turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called Turbonetics and told them the= application was a 13b used as a generator in a sound proof box that would= have quite a pressure drop at the air filter to overcome.....and be used= on top of a mountain...!?!
The sales guy ass= ured me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the ticket.
Later I emailed= Greg Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running his Cozy with a= 13b Turbo, and he was using the same exact turbo?
Anyway, he had so= me mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at will, and was looking= for more bite.
I indicated that= I planned to use (some specific) blow off valve and waste= gate, Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your engine= unless it needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out for lightn= ess and simplicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated need. How ever= that manifests it'self??
Remeber, I have= a RD-1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to keep HP at or below 20= 0. I'm supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have an intercooler for this= reason. Self control will be required.
Scott
PS. I'm only a fe= w months from turning 55!!
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 7:31 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo
Sorry Scott......= ......This was directed at you !!..................<:)
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold


 
-------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>: --------------
Don,
  Curious wh= at the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine housing is= ?.............
Most of the recom= mendations from those of the group flying ahead or behind the TO4 range
from about .96 to= 1.15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in your rpm/mp numbers whe= n
you get airborne.= ............... 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold


 
-------------- Original message from shipchief@aol.com: --------------
Don,
I'm just a bit ah= ead of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest of the plane. I'm= wingless in the garage at home, test running in the yard with the ta= il tied to a cedar tree.
I'm building an= RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust manifold mounting= a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. The compres= or faces forward and  a cone shaped K&N filter is direct mounted= to the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that cro= sses in front of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling air= exit (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe is= supported with a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the block and= oil pan) so it all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can grow= a bit from heat. So far the turbo muffles the engine fairly well.....but= I have not gone to War Emergency Power.....yet.
I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin= , making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today.
the oil cooler is= mounted on the right side and uses the entire airflow from the= right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and oil cooler= helped solve my previous cooling failure.
I ground ran for= 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and the temps are stab= le. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 minutes, the highe= st I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at 172F. Tracy's en= gine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow, so it varies as= you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with firm te= mperature control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's enough power= that the fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there might be some= power there, and promises of more.
I have not done= anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air entering here goes rig= ht to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injectors, turbo assem= bly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiator air.=
To keep from chok= ing the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duct to carry the le= ft cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could mount an interco= oler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here, I would need to re= make the air tubes into/out of it. The important part of this is cool= ing the fuel system and isolating the turbo heat from anything it cou= ld damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and I have not forgotten it.
You can see my pr= ogress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/
Constructive comm= ents are always welcome!
Scott
PS, I'm working= very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up fast!

 
 
=3D
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