X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.78.142] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4123312 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:43:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.78.142; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o1D0gKd1017938 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:20 -0500 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d28.63f6d093 (37535) for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-me03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me03.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.104]) by cia-mb01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB018-b2d24b75f55f28a; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:13 -0500 Received: from webmail-m020 (webmail-m020.sim.aol.com [64.12.101.104]) by smtprly-me03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME031-b2d24b75f55f28a; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:07 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:07 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CC7A5C80FA7217_3480_4726_webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 30746-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com (64.12.101.104) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:42:07 -0500 Message-Id: <8CC7A5C80F0EC8F-3480-2332@webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CC7A5C80FA7217_3480_4726_webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don, I'm just a bit ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest= of the plane. I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running in the yar= d with the tail tied to a cedar tree. I'm building an RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust manifold= mounting a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. Th= e compresor faces forward and a cone shaped K&N filter is direct mounted= to the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that cro= sses in front of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling air= exit (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe is supp= orted with a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the block and oil= pan) so it all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can grow a bit= from heat. So far the turbo muffles the engine fairly well.....but I have= not gone to War Emergency Power.....yet. I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin= , making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today. the oil cooler is mounted on the right side and uses the entire airflow fr= om the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and oil= cooler helped solve my previous cooling failure. I ground ran for 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and th= e temps are stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 mi= nutes, the highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at= 172F. Tracy's engine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow,= so it varies as you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with= firm temperature control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's enou= gh power that the fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there might= be some power there, and promises of more. I have not done anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air enterin= g here goes right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injecto= rs, turbo assembly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiator air= . To keep from choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duc= t to carry the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could= mount an intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here,= I would need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. The important part= of this is cooling the fuel system and isolating the turbo heat from anyt= hing it could damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and I have not forg= otten it. You can see my progress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/ Constructive comments are always welcome! Scott PS, I'm working very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up fa= st! -----Original Message----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo Hi Don, Kinda busy right now but will have some time tuesday night. You did a gre= at job on your plane and should be able to pull off an excellent turbo con= version. =20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Don Wallker wrote: Dear list, Turbo flyers and especially David Leonard, I've 16 flying hours on my RV-8 with a Renesis and all of Tracy's stuff= and a Catto 76/88. The airplane flys great, just like an RV, no gliding= time, and about 36 hours on the ground. SPECS Full throttle 8,000' 174 mph indicated, 2450 on the prop, water 185, oil= 205, Climb out 110 mph, rate of climb, 1250'/min. Field elevation 5046. These are not bad numbers, but I would like better. I've been influenced= by some of the the local jet jocks who say that there is no such thing as= too much horsepower and they are right! N113BR seems to be performing= about like a 160-170 HP RV. So I am investigating turboing it! The idea= is to have a little better than sea level performance on take off (design= ed for 210HP N.A.) and turbo normalizing at cruise. Up to 12000' would be= nice. During the air races this year, Dave Leonard showed up and I was very impr= essed by his airplane. He was able to turbo and inter cool it and have it= all inside an RV cowl, so I'll likely base my installation on his. Plus= , he has been through the learning curve of 3 or so turbos so he knows wha= t to do, what not to do and what would be better if he were to do it all= over again. I've spent the afternoon looking through the archives, reading as much as= I can find about turbos, and downloading all the photos I can. Here is= what I am tentatively planning on doing. Get one of Techwelding's Renesis exhaust flanges made from 304 SS and have= my local waterjet guy copy it and make one out of 321SS. I'll weld 321= SS and manifold it together and run it into the bottom of the turbo that= will sit right in front of the exhaust. The turbo will have additional= support. Run the turbo outlet air from it through a stock RX-7 inter coo= ler sitting in front of the left cheek opening and then out to the right= side of the engine, probably routing it under the PSRU and then up to a= throttle body and manifold. Then four al tubes over the top of the engin= e into a cut down and welded up stock RX-8 intake manifold. The exhaust= out of the turbo will run down and out in the usual center of the back of= the cowl opening. I am thinking of trying one of Burns Stainless all SS= mufflers. It is basically a glass pack, but instead of glass, they are= using stainless steel wool and they say it is holding up for the rotary= racers. They make it any length you want and is about 4 lbs with their= SS vs 9 lbs with the hushpower 2 I'm using now. The combustion air intak= e to the turbo will be on the aft left side of the cowl via an NACA duct= opening as Dave's is. The oil cooler will have to be moved to under the engine. I will build up= a fiberglass scoop, probably based on Van's scoop and modify it to have= a bigger opening and be farther forward, closer to the prop. I will prob= ably have the oil cooler made a little larger (Techwelding) than the one= I have now. That's the basic idea at this point. I'll finalize my plan, prebuild as= much as possible before tearing the airplane apart and try for as little= down time as possible. I'm looking for the list's critique here, plus qu= estions that I will have missed. The following are a list of questions th= at I have. 1. Which turbo should I use, which orientation and who should I use to do= the work, plus what is the approximate price? TO4 hybrid? Dave and Ste= ve Brooks mention BNR turbo as a modifier. Who manufactures the turbo? 2. What is the ideal situation with a waste gate? Full open or not, or,= or? 3. I read about a N.O.oil line solenoid to the turbo bearings. I assume= that if the Turbo fails, you turn it on to the N.C. position to prevent= oil from being pumped down your exhaust? I assume the oil that is used= is routed back to the sump. 4. What size exhaust is optimum? It seems Dave is running 2.5 inch. 5. What size throttle body should I use and what would be a good one? One= throttle body or two? 4. What size injectors should I use, and where sho= uld the secondaries be placed? Dave is using 480cc and staging is at 32= inches. Are you using the same for the primaries and is there an idle pr= oblem with the larger injectors? 5. Anyone out there turboing a Renesis? Anyone flying one? 6. My compression is 9.7 to 1. Any problems with this higher compressio= n ratio as long as I use an inter cooler and keep the boost no higher than= 35"? And lot more questions, but that's all I can think of now. So If any of you can add any thought, let me know. Don Walker -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html ----------MB_8CC7A5C80FA7217_3480_4726_webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Don,
I'm just a bit ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on the= rest of the plane. I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running in th= e yard with the tail tied to a cedar tree.
I'm building an RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust man= ifold mounting a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine= housing. The compresor faces forward and  a cone shaped K&N filt= er is direct mounted to the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped= 2.25" pipe that crosses in front of the firewall and exits out the center= of the cooling air exit (cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ram= p. The pipe is supported with a clevis to the engine mount plate (bet= ween the block and oil pan) so it all moves in harmony with the engine/tur= bo, yet can grow a bit from heat. So far the turbo muffles the engine fair= ly well.....but I have not gone to War Emergency Power.....yet.
I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin= , making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today.
the oil cooler is mounted on the right side and uses the en= tire airflow from the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for rad= iator and oil cooler helped solve my previous cooling failure.
I ground ran for 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up,= and the temps are stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the la= st 5 minutes, the highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil sta= ble at 172F. Tracy's engine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel= flow, so it varies as you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to a= bout 50HP with firm temperature control. This was very exciting for me bec= uase it's enough power that the fuselage is starting to buck and shake lik= e there might be some power there, and promises of more.
I have not done anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air en= tering here goes right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel in= jectors, turbo assembly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiato= r air.
To keep from choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making= a duct to carry the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where= I could mount an intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler= here, I would need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. The impor= tant part of this is cooling the fuel system and isolating the turbo heat&= nbsp;from anything it could damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and= I have not forgotten it.
You can see my progress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/
Constructive comments are always welcome!
Scott
PS, I'm working very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds= up fast!

 


-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 3:24 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo

Hi Don,
Kinda busy right now but will have some time tuesday night.  You did= a great job on your plane and should be able to pull off an excellent tur= bo conversion.  

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Don Wallker <drwalker@gbis.com&= gt; wrote:
Dear list, Turbo fl= yers and especially David Leonard,
  I've 16 flying hours on my RV-8 with a Renesis and all of Tracy's= stuff and a Catto 76/88.  The airplane flys great, just like an RV,= no gliding time, and about 36 hours on the ground. SPECS
Full throttle 8,000'   174 mph indicated, 2450 on the prop, water 185= , oil 205,
Climb out 110 mph, rate of climb, 1250'/min.  Field elevation 5046.
These are not bad numbers, but I would like better.  I've been influe= nced by some of the the local jet jocks who say that there is no such thin= g as too much horsepower and they are right!   N113BR seems to be per= forming about like a 160-170 HP RV.  So I am investigating turboing= it!  The idea is to have a little better than sea level performance= on take off (designed for 210HP N.A.) and turbo normalizing at cruise. &n= bsp;Up to 12000' would be nice.
During the air races this year, Dave Leonard showed up and I was very impr= essed by his airplane.  He was able to turbo and inter cool it and ha= ve it all inside an RV cowl, so I'll  likely base my installation on= his.  Plus, he has been through the learning curve of 3 or so turbos= so he knows what to do, what not to do and what would be better if he wer= e to do it all over again.

I've spent the afternoon looking through the archives, reading as much as= I can find about turbos, and downloading all the photos I can.  Here= is what I am tentatively planning  on doing.
Get one of Techwelding's Renesis exhaust flanges made from 304 SS and have= my local waterjet guy copy it and make one out of 321SS.  I'll weld= 321 SS and  manifold it together and run it into the bottom of the= turbo that will sit right in front of the exhaust.  The turbo will= have additional support.  Run the turbo outlet air from it through= a stock RX-7 inter cooler sitting in front of the left cheek opening and= then out to the right side of the engine, probably routing it under the= PSRU and then up to a throttle body and manifold.  Then four al tube= s over the top of the engine into a cut down and welded up stock RX-8 &nbs= p;intake manifold.  The exhaust out of the turbo will run down and ou= t in the usual center of the back of the cowl opening.  I am thinking= of trying one of Burns Stainless all SS mufflers.  It is basically= a glass pack, but instead of glass, they are using stainless steel wool= and they say it is holding up for the rotary racers.  They make it= any length you want and is about 4 lbs with their SS vs 9 lbs with the hu= shpower 2 I'm using now.  The combustion air intake to the turbo will= be on the aft left side of the cowl via an NACA duct opening as Dave's is= .
The oil cooler will have to be moved to under the engine.  I will bui= ld up a fiberglass scoop, probably based on Van's scoop and modify it to= have a bigger opening and be farther forward, closer to the prop.  I= will probably  have the oil cooler made a little larger (Techwelding= ) than the one I have now.

That's the basic idea at this point.  I'll finalize my plan, prebuild= as much as possible before tearing the airplane apart and try for as litt= le down time as possible.  I'm looking for the list's critique here,= plus questions that I will have missed.  The following are a list of= questions that I have.
1. Which turbo should I use, which orientation and who should I use to do= the work, plus what is the approximate price?   TO4 hybrid?  Da= ve and Steve Brooks mention BNR turbo as a modifier.  Who manufacture= s the turbo?
2. What is the ideal situation with a waste gate?  Full open or not,= or, or?
3. I read about a N.O.oil line solenoid to the turbo bearings.  I ass= ume that if the Turbo fails, you turn it on to the N.C. position to preven= t oil from being pumped down your exhaust?  I assume the oil that is= used is routed back to the sump.
4. What size exhaust is optimum?  It seems Dave is running 2.5 inch.<= br> 5.  What size throttle body should I use and what would be a good one= ? One throttle body or two? 4.  What size injectors should I use, and= where should the secondaries be placed?   Dave is using 480cc and st= aging is at 32 inches.  Are you using the same for the primaries and= is there an idle problem with the larger injectors?
5.  Anyone out there turboing a Renesis?  Anyone flying one?
6.  My compression is 9.7 to 1.   Any problems with this higher= compression ratio as long as I use an inter cooler and keep the boost no= higher than 35"?
And lot more questions, but that's all I can think of now.
So If any of you can add any thought, let me know.

Don Walker




----------MB_8CC7A5C80FA7217_3480_4726_webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com--