X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com ([209.85.218.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4021864 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:54:04 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so63834bwz.27 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:53:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=xkeC4Hiaoo9FjlXNic/THcDc+5QuHMu8uC1IHPss3Wc=; b=nht9ViZ0t6KezjcxgEublAzaBEhO3Frr+RGjN6nJK/Mao96aHSs+cti/XVriE7yk3D mtnxoBtc8R+WSm2hIxUx/Ez+mY13+EV/7WYEp3RTc9goGwSq+/fajMdMuh6kGX9ro/GG EuV2CF/NzAQ5boKb7EifIc+C5GwpPpF2ZQYC8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=spMVr5c4QFMRjRyQM9aT8ATO5qobDozsosKupvXe4T9Th1qqcUkYgfVN1XXdwmGZmo ThLKceXR5DsxjYdeXkhqas9yVrBrgPQclS/18nE0v+SkKK0oOSA8EarYKHUTAE2r4FF0 Zmowq9oD0BhUmwK5Fw4VroPSE6J4e1brVux3g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.32.6 with SMTP id a6mr3853867bkd.93.1260895997731; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:53:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:53:17 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0912150853i7fef3935s136d170a0986e76d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325552ed20b22d3047ac73adb --000325552ed20b22d3047ac73adb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, I never mentioned airplane. He suggested "off road" and I agreed. I haven't landed on a road yet, and don't intend to either. Mark S. On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: > Thanks Mark =85 300 PSI, that=92s good to know. > > Have you said the word AIRPLANE to Fluidyne yet? Someone else on this lis= t > said they won=92t sell to you if application is aircraft use. > > I did not mention my application other than Mazda Rotary/RX7 engine. > > Jeff > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:22 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Jeff, > > > > Here's the reply from the owner of Fluidyne concerning the rated pressure= s > of these coolers. > > > > "The DB Series of oval tube oil coolers are rated at working pressures of > 300 PSI and designed to withstand a proof pressure of 400 PSI. Nothing i= n > the normal operation of your Mazda engine oil system should have caused a= ny > deformation." > > I'm always very careful on startup not to over-rev the engine. So, who > knows how it got damaged? I'm just glad it wasn't an A/C evaporator core= or > the results may have been much different. > > > > Mark > > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote= : > > Mark, I can=92t find any specs on the Fluidyne coolers but they are in th= e > same class as the one you have =96 I bought mine new through Summit Racin= g. > > Jeff > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:29 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Jeff, > > > > Do you know the pressure limitations of your coolers? > > > > Mark > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote= : > > Mark, I have two of the DB-30416, single-pass coolers =85 no measureable > pressure drop with 2 in series =85 I=92m seeing 80 psi max with the 13B. > > JWW > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:36 AM > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Al, > > > > I have the Therm-Hx All-Pro 600 2-pass cooler, p/n DB-30617, as shown on > http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_theoc.html#Therm-Hx%20Engine%20Oil%20Coolers%2= 0DB-30716,%20DB-30617,%20DB-30417. > I've attached a picture of it. It is the one on the right. You can see = how > flat the tanks are. The material is very thick, but I can't get inside t= o > measure it. My guess is .090" - .125". Strange that this hasn't been a > problem for other customers. Like I said before, I suspect that someone > before me over pressurized it during proof testing. But that's just a > hunch. > > > > There's a BTU chart on that page, but no pressure drop chart. Since I'm > reading 90psi at the engine oil filter adapter plate, it doesn't seem lik= e > I've got a problem with pressure drop. But then I haven't measured oil > pressure as it exits the oil pump either. > > > > Thanks for the design tips. > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: > > Mark; > > > > Before buying a new one of the same design, you may want to be sure it is > designed to handle he pressure. If the tank has flat surfaces, even just= a > few inches across, it needs to be about 1/8=94 thick if it is aluminum. > > > > I speced my custom design aluminum cooler (built by Griffin) for 125 psi. > I pressure tested it to 140. The oil pressure on my 20B will get t0 90+ > when cold, and runs 70-80 when hot; and you want some margin, especially > since aluminum is subject to fatigue when cycled =96 and it is cycled eve= ry > time you start your engine and shut it down. > > > > You might also like to check if they have any pressure drop data. > Off-the-shelf coolers are generally designed for flow rates typical of > piston engines, typically about half of our engines. I recall looking at > some data on a Fluidyne cooler I was considering, and the pressure drop w= as > very high for flow up to about 16 gpm. If yours was designed for single > pass, and modified for double pass, it could be twice as bad. > > > > Just some things to check. > > > > Al G > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 5:35 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Lynn, > > > > There's a third possibility that I hadn't considered until I looked at th= e > cooler again tonight after work. It is evident that the cooler was > pressurized to the point that the tank warped causing the divider to pull > away from the core (not welded where it meets the core). This allowed th= e > oil to go in and right back out again. The tubes look fine, but the cent= er > of both tanks where there is no support, is ballooned outward. > > > > I'm debating on whether to send it back to Fluidyne for inspection & > repair, or to bite the bullet and order a new one (assuming that this siz= e > is still available). This one is definitely repairable, but not sure I'd > feel comfortable flying behind it afterwards. > > > > I also need to ask Gary what the working pressure is for the Fluidyne > coolers. I'm wondering if I may have damaged this cooler with 90 psi oil > pressure without realizing it? > > > > Mark > > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Lynn Hanover wrote= : > > Stephen, > > > > I called Fluidyne today and spoke with Gary, the owner. While the cooler > is not under warranty, they are willing to look at it and determine if it > can be repaired. I'll send it off and see what they say. > > > > Mark > > There should be evidence of a TIG bead half way around the end tank near > the center. Either its there or it isn't. If not and both fittings are in > the same end, it is the problem....... > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > > > > > --000325552ed20b22d3047ac73adb Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I never mentioned airplane.=A0 He suggested "off road" a= nd I agreed.=A0 I haven't landed on a road yet, and don't intend to= either.
=A0
Mark S.=A0

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacas= t.com> wrote:

Than= ks Mark =85 300 PSI, that=92s good to know.

Have= you said the word AIRPLANE to Fluidyne yet? Someone else on this list said= they won=92t sell to you if application is aircraft use.

I di= d not mention my application other than Mazda Rotary/RX7 engine.

Jeff=

=A0<= /span>

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:22 AM=20


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Jeff,

=A0

Here's the reply from the owner of Fluidyne conc= erning the rated pressures of these coolers.=A0

=A0

"The DB Series o= f oval tube oil coolers are rated at working pressures of 300 PSI and desig= ned to withstand a proof pressure of 400 PSI.=A0 Nothing in the normal oper= ation of your Mazda engine oil system should have caused any deformation.&q= uot;

I'm always very careful on startup not to over-r= ev the engine.=A0 So, who knows how it got damaged?=A0 I'm just glad it= wasn't an A/C evaporator core or the=A0results may have been much diff= erent.

=A0

Mark


=A0

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com= > wrote:

Mark= , I can=92t find any specs on the Fluidyne coolers but they are in the same= class as the one you have =96 I bought mine new through Summit Racing.

Jeff=

=A0<= /span>

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:29 AM
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Jeff,

=A0

Do you know the pressure limitations of your coolers= ?

=A0

Mark

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com= > wrote:

Mark= , I have two of the DB-30416, single-pass coolers =85 no measureable pressu= re drop with 2 in series =85 I=92m seeing 80 psi max with the 13B.

JWW<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:36 AM


To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Al,

=A0

I have the Therm-Hx All-Pro 600 2-pass cooler, p/n D= B-30617, as shown on http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_theoc.html#Therm-Hx%20Engine%20Oil%20Coo= lers%20DB-30716,%20DB-30617,%20DB-30417.=A0 I've attached a picture= of it.=A0 It is the one on the right. =A0You can see=A0how flat the tanks = are.=A0 The material is very thick, but I can't get inside to measure i= t.=A0 My guess is .090" - .125".=A0 Strange that this hasn't = been a problem for other customers.=A0 Like I said before, I suspect that s= omeone before me over pressurized it during proof testing.=A0 But that'= s just a hunch.

=A0

There's a BTU chart on that page, but no pressur= e drop chart.=A0 Since I'm reading 90psi at the engine oil filter adapt= er plate, it doesn't seem like I've got a problem with pressure dro= p. But then I haven't measured oil pressure as it exits the oil pump ei= ther.

=A0

Thanks for the design tips.

=A0

Mark S.



=A0

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote:

Mark;

=A0

Before = buying a new one of the same design, you may want to be sure it is designed= to handle he pressure. =A0If the tank has flat surfaces, even just a few i= nches across, it needs to be about 1/8=94 thick if it is aluminum.

=A0

I spece= d my custom design aluminum cooler (built by Griffin) for 125 psi.=A0 I pre= ssure tested it to 140.=A0 The oil pressure on my 20B will get t0 90+ when = cold, and runs 70-80 when hot; and you want some margin, especially since a= luminum is subject to fatigue when cycled =96 and it is cycled every time y= ou start your engine and shut it down.

=A0

You mig= ht also like to check if they have any pressure drop data. Off-the-shelf co= olers are generally designed for flow rates typical of piston engines, typi= cally about half of our engines.=A0 I recall looking at some data on a Flui= dyne cooler I was considering, and the pressure drop was very high for flow= up to about 16 gpm. =A0If yours was designed for single pass, and modified= for double pass, it could be twice as bad.

=A0

Just so= me things to check.

=A0

Al G

=A0

=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircra= ft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:35 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Lynn,

=A0

There's a third pos= sibility that I hadn't considered until I looked at the cooler again to= night after work.=A0 It is evident that the cooler was pressurized to the p= oint that the tank warped causing the divider to pull away from the core (n= ot welded where it meets the core).=A0 This=A0allowed the oil to go in and = right back out again.=A0 The tubes look fine, but the center of=A0both tank= s where there is no support, is ballooned outward.=A0

=A0

I'm debating on whe= ther to send it back=A0to Fluidyne for inspection & repair, or=A0to bit= e the bullet and=A0order=A0a new one (assuming that this size is still avai= lable).=A0 This one is definitely repairable, but not sure I'd feel com= fortable flying behind it afterwards.=A0

=A0

I also need to ask Gary= what the working pressure is for the Fluidyne coolers.=A0 I'm wonderin= g if I may have damaged this cooler with 90 psi oil pressure without realiz= ing it?=A0 =A0

=A0

Ma= rk

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at= 6:58 PM, Lynn Hanover <lehanover@gmail.com> wrote:

Stephen,

=A0

I called Fluidyne today= and spoke with Gary, the owner.=A0 While the cooler is not under warranty,= they are willing to look at it and determine if it can be repaired.=A0 I&#= 39;ll send it off and see what they say.=A0

=A0

Mark

There should be evidenc= e of a TIG bead half way around the end tank near the center. Either its th= ere or it isn't. If not and both fittings are in the same end, it is th= e problem.......

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

--000325552ed20b22d3047ac73adb--