X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com ([209.85.218.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4021696 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:22:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so3112205bwz.27 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:21:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+rC/0koxgccZsS+DntjJLshmzvw/n8dQZMtYgXduUME=; b=pqeH8OZtTwjqGLlXgbPpk0xOcEwNZjZhA/lg25pIL6o45I7VZvuxVJCUXd+qNst8Q2 soX0yVO39QLk5zOdFIdj4fE/7HSOIUk5KBEQdHtiIdNQpjC8C7GDKFnOKgx1jpZyE+4g e2+KYlpm+7bGajSADk/1Zz99QGA2Nyx3q+dN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=oK58iJerre+U5nsRyajDrdAnXf9L+L1YV0rpz4UrnXRd0F6HtMWkDKtsPMY3ykED+V jacDfcVrDfd2gMphCF8kV0vRZyij8G3Zzs9T0W0+wiNKMXSMUMtD3LpW2IeB/w2Qon0t nUsfpIWbU0+3/0aaxPByyW6i4mAACpkbV3xFg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.24.71 with SMTP id u7mr1073550bkb.35.1260890512556; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:21:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:21:52 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0912150721k72787b02jdd111876bbc4db8d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325554fda1a0938047ac5f366 --000325554fda1a0938047ac5f366 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, Here's the reply from the owner of Fluidyne concerning the rated pressures of these coolers. "The DB Series of oval tube oil coolers are rated at working pressures of 300 PSI and designed to withstand a proof pressure of 400 PSI. Nothing in the normal operation of your Mazda engine oil system should have caused any deformation." I'm always very careful on startup not to over-rev the engine. So, who knows how it got damaged? I'm just glad it wasn't an A/C evaporator core o= r the results may have been much different. Mark On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: > Mark, I can=92t find any specs on the Fluidyne coolers but they are in t= he > same class as the one you have =96 I bought mine new through Summit Racin= g. > > Jeff > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:29 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Jeff, > > > > Do you know the pressure limitations of your coolers? > > > > Mark > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote= : > > Mark, I have two of the DB-30416, single-pass coolers =85 no measureable > pressure drop with 2 in series =85 I=92m seeing 80 psi max with the 13B. > > JWW > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:36 AM > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Al, > > > > I have the Therm-Hx All-Pro 600 2-pass cooler, p/n DB-30617, as shown on > http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_theoc.html#Therm-Hx%20Engine%20Oil%20Coolers%2= 0DB-30716,%20DB-30617,%20DB-30417. > I've attached a picture of it. It is the one on the right. You can see = how > flat the tanks are. The material is very thick, but I can't get inside t= o > measure it. My guess is .090" - .125". Strange that this hasn't been a > problem for other customers. Like I said before, I suspect that someone > before me over pressurized it during proof testing. But that's just a > hunch. > > > > There's a BTU chart on that page, but no pressure drop chart. Since I'm > reading 90psi at the engine oil filter adapter plate, it doesn't seem lik= e > I've got a problem with pressure drop. But then I haven't measured oil > pressure as it exits the oil pump either. > > > > Thanks for the design tips. > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: > > Mark; > > > > Before buying a new one of the same design, you may want to be sure it is > designed to handle he pressure. If the tank has flat surfaces, even just= a > few inches across, it needs to be about 1/8=94 thick if it is aluminum. > > > > I speced my custom design aluminum cooler (built by Griffin) for 125 psi. > I pressure tested it to 140. The oil pressure on my 20B will get t0 90+ > when cold, and runs 70-80 when hot; and you want some margin, especially > since aluminum is subject to fatigue when cycled =96 and it is cycled eve= ry > time you start your engine and shut it down. > > > > You might also like to check if they have any pressure drop data. > Off-the-shelf coolers are generally designed for flow rates typical of > piston engines, typically about half of our engines. I recall looking at > some data on a Fluidyne cooler I was considering, and the pressure drop w= as > very high for flow up to about 16 gpm. If yours was designed for single > pass, and modified for double pass, it could be twice as bad. > > > > Just some things to check. > > > > Al G > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 5:35 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler > > > > Lynn, > > > > There's a third possibility that I hadn't considered until I looked at th= e > cooler again tonight after work. It is evident that the cooler was > pressurized to the point that the tank warped causing the divider to pull > away from the core (not welded where it meets the core). This allowed th= e > oil to go in and right back out again. The tubes look fine, but the cent= er > of both tanks where there is no support, is ballooned outward. > > > > I'm debating on whether to send it back to Fluidyne for inspection & > repair, or to bite the bullet and order a new one (assuming that this siz= e > is still available). This one is definitely repairable, but not sure I'd > feel comfortable flying behind it afterwards. > > > > I also need to ask Gary what the working pressure is for the Fluidyne > coolers. I'm wondering if I may have damaged this cooler with 90 psi oil > pressure without realizing it? > > > > Mark > > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Lynn Hanover wrote= : > > Stephen, > > > > I called Fluidyne today and spoke with Gary, the owner. While the cooler > is not under warranty, they are willing to look at it and determine if it > can be repaired. I'll send it off and see what they say. > > > > Mark > > There should be evidence of a TIG bead half way around the end tank near > the center. Either its there or it isn't. If not and both fittings are in > the same end, it is the problem....... > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > > > --000325554fda1a0938047ac5f366 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,
=A0
Here's the reply from the owner of Fluidyne concerning the rated p= ressures of these coolers.=A0
=A0
"The DB Series of oval tube oil coolers a= re rated at working pressures of 300 PSI and designed to withstand a proof = pressure of 400 PSI.=A0 Nothing in the normal operation of your Mazda engin= e oil system should have caused any deformation."
I'm always very careful on startup not to over-rev the engine.=A0 = So, who knows how it got damaged?=A0 I'm just glad it wasn't an A/C= evaporator core or the=A0results may have been much different.
=A0
Mark

=A0
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast= .com> wrote:

Mark= , I can=92t find any specs on the Fluidyne coolers but they are in the same= class as the one you have =96 I bought mine new through Summit Racing.

Jeff=

=A0<= /span>

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:29 AM
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Jeff,

=A0

Do you know the pressure limitations of your coolers= ?

=A0

Mark

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com= > wrote:

Mark= , I have two of the DB-30416, single-pass coolers =85 no measureable pressu= re drop with 2 in series =85 I=92m seeing 80 psi max with the 13B.

JWW<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:36 AM


To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Al,

=A0

I have the Therm-Hx All-Pro 600 2-pass cooler, p/n D= B-30617, as shown on http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_theoc.html#Therm-Hx%20Engine%20Oil%20Coo= lers%20DB-30716,%20DB-30617,%20DB-30417.=A0 I've attached a picture= of it.=A0 It is the one on the right. =A0You can see=A0how flat the tanks = are.=A0 The material is very thick, but I can't get inside to measure i= t.=A0 My guess is .090" - .125".=A0 Strange that this hasn't = been a problem for other customers.=A0 Like I said before, I suspect that s= omeone before me over pressurized it during proof testing.=A0 But that'= s just a hunch.

=A0

There's a BTU chart on that page, but no pressur= e drop chart.=A0 Since I'm reading 90psi at the engine oil filter adapt= er plate, it doesn't seem like I've got a problem with pressure dro= p. But then I haven't measured oil pressure as it exits the oil pump ei= ther.

=A0

Thanks for the design tips.

=A0

Mark S.



=A0

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote:

Mark;

=A0

Before = buying a new one of the same design, you may want to be sure it is designed= to handle he pressure. =A0If the tank has flat surfaces, even just a few i= nches across, it needs to be about 1/8=94 thick if it is aluminum.

=A0

I spece= d my custom design aluminum cooler (built by Griffin) for 125 psi.=A0 I pre= ssure tested it to 140.=A0 The oil pressure on my 20B will get t0 90+ when = cold, and runs 70-80 when hot; and you want some margin, especially since a= luminum is subject to fatigue when cycled =96 and it is cycled every time y= ou start your engine and shut it down.

=A0

You mig= ht also like to check if they have any pressure drop data. Off-the-shelf co= olers are generally designed for flow rates typical of piston engines, typi= cally about half of our engines.=A0 I recall looking at some data on a Flui= dyne cooler I was considering, and the pressure drop was very high for flow= up to about 16 gpm. =A0If yours was designed for single pass, and modified= for double pass, it could be twice as bad.

=A0

Just so= me things to check.

=A0

Al G

=A0

=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircra= ft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:35 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil cooler

=A0

Lynn,

=A0

There's a third pos= sibility that I hadn't considered until I looked at the cooler again to= night after work.=A0 It is evident that the cooler was pressurized to the p= oint that the tank warped causing the divider to pull away from the core (n= ot welded where it meets the core).=A0 This=A0allowed the oil to go in and = right back out again.=A0 The tubes look fine, but the center of=A0both tank= s where there is no support, is ballooned outward.=A0

=A0

I'm debating on whe= ther to send it back=A0to Fluidyne for inspection & repair, or=A0to bit= e the bullet and=A0order=A0a new one (assuming that this size is still avai= lable).=A0 This one is definitely repairable, but not sure I'd feel com= fortable flying behind it afterwards.=A0

=A0

I also need to ask Gary= what the working pressure is for the Fluidyne coolers.=A0 I'm wonderin= g if I may have damaged this cooler with 90 psi oil pressure without realiz= ing it?=A0 =A0

=A0

Ma= rk

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at= 6:58 PM, Lynn Hanover <lehanover@gmail.com> wrote:

Stephen,

=A0

I called Fluidyne today= and spoke with Gary, the owner.=A0 While the cooler is not under warranty,= they are willing to look at it and determine if it can be repaired.=A0 I&#= 39;ll send it off and see what they say.=A0

=A0

Mark

There should be evidenc= e of a TIG bead half way around the end tank near the center. Either its th= ere or it isn't. If not and both fittings are in the same end, it is th= e problem.......

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover

=A0

=A0

=A0


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