X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4021029 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:35:34 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB3F173A48 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:34:57 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 10A5FBEC030 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:34:55 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:34:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7D9C.26F549A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 091214-1, 12/14/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7D9C.26F549A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, That is some serious power alright, close enough is right. George ( down under) George,=20 Yes, my Fluidyne cooler should easily do the job of cooling my current = engine. But I am building a P-port 20B to replace this motor = downstream, so I need to design for 375hp (375 x .8 =3D 300). The = Fluidyne cooler is 297 cu in (core size is 9 x 11 x 3). Close enough = for government work. =20 Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Sorry Mark,=20 It's hard to keep track of who's running what, on a 20B or say 300 = +hp, two would still be too much, but you know that already, as you = said your running too cool. One of your coolers is more than a stock 13B = cooler by about 14 cu" Do you or anyone know the size of the stock 20B oil cooler? Just playing with the figures, I guess I could use .8 or .85 cu" per = Hp for oil cooling, just as a linear calculation. Using .8 , Mark's = need for 300hp is only 240cu", however each oil cooler is 189cu" ea. = This area required may need to increase incrementally with increased HP. Anyone with any suggestions in regard to this? George (down under) George,=20 Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement than a = 13B. Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark/ Jeff, I hadn't bothered to check the size before as the Mazda oil = cooler is known to be more than adequate. If your using over the Mazda = size in cu" then your over sized. Both your cooler areas are well over = sized. I seen one chap used two Mazda coolers when taking off on water = using NOs, but he admitted it was over cooling. George ( down under) George,=20 I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, they = are about 4 1/2 x 18 x 2. I had considered using two RX-7 coolers = arranged in a wedge configuration. But I ended up going with a large = rectangular unit which I chose because the air would not have to change = directions to get through the core. Hopefully, that would provide lower = cooling drag. =20 Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark /Jeff, What is the Mazda cooler size., in comparison? George ( down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:34 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling Jeff, I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was oriented = with the inlet/outlet on the side. If there was an air lock, I would = think that at least part of the other end tank would get warm (which it = doesn't). Good suggestion though. =20 This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of your = coolers. So, it should be up to the task at hand. This is assuming = that it is working as designed. Mark =20 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Whaley = wrote: Hey Mark, I guess the only other logical reason would be = an air-lock caused by orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly = the same, that is highly unlikely. Incidentally, I have two, 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil = coolers in series =96 I=92m over-cooled with 2 but found 1 wasn=92t = enough. JWW From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling Well guys, here is a new one... at least for me. =20 I've never been able to get my 20B oil temps quite low = enough for comfort. I chaulked most of it up to the high Texas temps = and an engine that produces gobs of horsepower (just kidding on the = "gobs of horsepower" part). I'm running a 10" x 11" x 2 3/4" Fluidyne = dual-pass oil/air cooler and a large (and heavy) Fluidyne oil/water = exchanger. Water temps were fine but the oil temps would reach = 240*-245* on climb, and just barely down to 200* in cruise. I tried = different plumbing arrangements, added a cowl flap (which helped some), = etc. Still, the temps didn't want to come down. Well, yesterday I ran = the engine with the cowl off (doing some fuel pressure = monitoring/adjusting), and I had just finished getting things up to = operating temperature, verified that fuel pressure was good, and then = shut it down. I just happened to touch the end tank on the Fluidyne = oil/air exchanger and to my surprise, IT WAS STONE COLD! I touched the = other end (inlet/outlet) and it was HOT! I thought this was odd. The = only thing that I could figure is that the dual-pass oil cooler was = defective. Since the cooler has no thermostat, I can only conclude that = the internal tank separator, which is how they make a single-pass cooler = into a dual-pass cooler, was allowing the oil to bypass the core and go = directly from the inlet to the outlet. Well, no wonder I can't get the = oil temps to come down!!! =20 I replaced the cooler with another unit I had on hand, = ran the engine, and low and behold, both end tanks come up to temp = together. I did a couple of ground runs and themps look encouraging. = But unfortunately, it was too late to do a test flight yesterday. I'm = sure the new cooler will make a big improvement. I'm hoping it will be = enough to permit me to remove the oil/water exchanger. =20 Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED! = TRUST BUT VERIFY!!! Mark S. Lancair ES/20B =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7D9C.26F549A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Mark,
That is some serious power alright, = close enough is=20 right.
George ( down under)
George,
 
Yes, my Fluidyne cooler should easily do the job of cooling my = current=20 engine.  But I am building a P-port 20B to replace this = motor=20 downstream, so I need to design for 375hp (375 x .8 =3D 300).  = The Fluidyne=20 cooler is 297 cu in (core size is 9 x 11 x 3).  Close enough for=20 government work. 
 
Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM, George = Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> = wrote:
Sorry Mark,
It's hard to keep track of who's = running what,=20 on a 20B or say 300 +hp,  two would still be too much, but you = know=20 that already, as you said your running too cool. One of your coolers = is more=20 than a stock 13B cooler by about 14 cu"
Do you or anyone know the size of = the=20 stock 20B oil cooler?
 
Just playing with the figures, I = guess I could=20 use .8 or .85 cu" per Hp for oil cooling, just as a linear=20 calculation.  Using .8 , Mark's need for 300hp is only 240cu", = however=20 each oil cooler is 189cu" ea. This area required may need to = increase=20 incrementally with increased HP.
Anyone with any suggestions in = regard to=20 this?
George (down under)
George,
 
Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement = than a=20 13B.
Mark
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George = Lendich=20 <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
 Mark/ Jeff,
I hadn't bothered to check the = size before=20 as the Mazda oil cooler is known to be more than adequate. If = your using=20 over the Mazda size in cu" then your over sized. = Both=20 your cooler areas are well over sized. I seen one chap used two = Mazda=20 coolers when taking off on water using NOs, but he admitted it = was over=20 cooling.
George ( down = under)
George,
 
I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, = they are=20 about 4 1/2 x 18 x 2.  I had considered using two = RX-7=20 coolers arranged in a wedge configuration.  But = I ended=20 up going with a large rectangular unit which I chose = because=20 the air would not have to change directions to get = through=20 the core.  Hopefully, that would provide lower cooling=20 drag.  
 
Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, = George Lendich=20 <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark /Jeff,
What is the Mazda cooler = size., in=20 comparison?
George ( down = under)
----- Original Message = -----
From: Mark Steitle
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, = December 15,=20 2009 3:34 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Oil=20 Cooling

Jeff,
 
I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was = oriented=20 with the inlet/outlet on the side.  If there was = an air=20 lock, I would think that at least part of the other end = tank would=20 get warm (which it doesn't).  Good suggestion = though. =20
 
This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of = your=20 coolers.  So, it should be up to the task at = hand.  This=20 is assuming that it is working as designed.
 
Mark   

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, = Jeff=20 Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> = wrote:

Hey Mark, I = guess the=20 only other logical reason would be an air-lock caused by = orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly the = same, that is=20 highly unlikely.

Incidentally, = I have=20 two, 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil coolers in series =96 = I=92m over-cooled with=20 2 but found 1 wasn=92t enough.

JWW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of=20 Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, December 14, = 2009 12:00=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling

 

Well guys, here is a new one... at = least for=20 me. 

 

I've never been able to get my = 20B oil=20 temps quite low enough for comfort. =20 I chaulked most of it up to the high = Texas temps=20 and an engine that produces gobs of horsepower (just = kidding on=20 the "gobs of horsepower" part).  I'm running a = 10" x=20 11" x 2 3/4" Fluidyne dual-pass oil/air cooler and = a large=20 (and heavy) Fluidyne oil/water exchanger.  = Water temps=20 were fine but the oil temps would reach 240*-245* = on climb,=20 and just barely down to 200* in cruise.  I tried = different=20 plumbing arrangements, added a cowl flap (which helped = some),=20 etc.  Still, the temps didn't want to come=20 down.  Well, yesterday I ran the engine = with the=20 cowl off (doing some fuel = pressure monitoring/adjusting),=20 and I had just finished getting things up = to operating=20 temperature, verified that fuel pressure was = good, and then=20 shut it down.  I just happened to touch the = end tank=20 on the Fluidyne oil/air exchanger and to my = surprise, IT=20 WAS STONE COLD!  I touched the other end = (inlet/outlet) and=20 it was HOT!  I thought this = was odd. =20 The only thing that I could figure is that the dual-pass = oil=20 cooler was defective.  Since the cooler has no = thermostat,=20 I can only conclude that the internal tank separator, = which=20 is how they make a single-pass = cooler into a=20 dual-pass cooler, was allowing the oil = to bypass=20 the core and go directly from the inlet to the = outlet.  Well, no wonder I can't get the oil = temps to=20 come down!!!  

 

I replaced the cooler with another=20 unit I had on hand, ran the engine, and low = and=20 behold, both end tanks come up to = temp together. =20 I did a couple of ground runs and themps look=20 encouraging.  But unfortunately, it was = too late=20 to do a test flight yesterday.  I'm sure the = new=20 cooler will make a big improvement. I'm=20 hoping it will be enough to permit me to remove the = oil/water exchanger.  

 

Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE = ANYTHING FOR=20 GRANTED!  TRUST BUT VERIFY!!!

 

Mark S.

Lancair ES/20B

 

      





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