X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com ([209.85.218.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4020660 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:50:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so2714419bwz.27 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:50:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rJ7y2j8OAZNtwfTJEek6JR0lk5kwUJXqmK/WpAHbt48=; b=kclG62i6xnSyFXMfi8EX1HnHNYQDDM+8ssMwP9zLGX9KUiOEs81eU9R9BY8XBrLZhI +l7ikQwAV8BTowaaIocelPG2Mhe1jDUKv2I7+vsXlCGXoo9nob+3ILWR6HxVTBf88IWJ b89LOc7MhEhG4ZCYCIsF7WVnQNQjFuNK17YRo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=HRm56xwQ9T6+PBt2gJT3Dr47djanEOSlWBKZEEZMjWTpA4728doxxT+cRXCu1uvlKJ 0WUc+2/nYP3mdBeZssgnSlkiGoIgfnbhBbK4qtaGzHTIw/Nntb7MePtyYpQFNSReHZun rlDGYJwNgfaDPH/iQ8weX7BQ8QeYXOYWE2POA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.155.73 with SMTP id r9mr3384212bkw.14.1260841814337; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:50:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:50:14 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0912141750s78fbd748pdb72ec1b2158d889@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cfa8e762a58047aba9c14 --0015175cfa8e762a58047aba9c14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George, Yes, my Fluidyne cooler should easily do the job of cooling my current engine. But I am building a P-port 20B to replace this motor downstream, s= o I need to design for 375hp (375 x .8 =3D 300). The Fluidyne cooler is 297 = cu in (core size is 9 x 11 x 3). Close enough for government work. Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM, George Lendich wrote= : > Sorry Mark, > It's hard to keep track of who's running what, on a 20B or say 300 +hp, > two would still be too much, but you know that already, as you said your > running too cool. One of your coolers is more than a stock 13B cooler by > about 14 cu" > Do you or anyone know the size of the stock 20B oil cooler? > > Just playing with the figures, I guess I could use .8 or .85 cu" per Hp f= or > oil cooling, just as a linear calculation. Using .8 , Mark's need for 30= 0hp > is only 240cu", however each oil cooler is 189cu" ea. This area required = may > need to increase incrementally with increased HP. > Anyone with any suggestions in regard to this? > George (down under) > > George, > > Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement than a 13B. > Mark > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George Lendich wro= te: > >> Mark/ Jeff, >> I hadn't bothered to check the size before as the Mazda oil cooler is >> known to be more than adequate. If your using over the Mazda size in >> cu" then your over sized. Both your cooler areas are well over sized. I = seen >> one chap used two Mazda coolers when taking off on water using NOs, but = he >> admitted it was over cooling. >> George ( down under) >> >> George, >> >> I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, they are about = 4 >> 1/2 x 18 x 2. I had considered using two RX-7 coolers arranged in a wed= ge >> configuration. But I ended up going with a large rectangular unit which= I >> chose because the air would not have to change directions to get through= the >> core. Hopefully, that would provide lower cooling drag. >> >> Mark >> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, George Lendich wr= ote: >> >>> Mark /Jeff, >>> What is the Mazda cooler size., in comparison? >>> George ( down under) >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Mark Steitle >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:34 AM >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling >>> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was oriented with the >>> inlet/outlet on the side. If there was an air lock, I would think that= at >>> least part of the other end tank would get warm (which it doesn't). Go= od >>> suggestion though. >>> >>> This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of your coolers. So= , >>> it should be up to the task at hand. This is assuming that it is worki= ng as >>> designed. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Whaley wro= te: >>> >>>> Hey Mark, I guess the only other logical reason would be an air-lock >>>> caused by orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly the same, th= at is >>>> highly unlikely. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, I have two, 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil coolers in series = =96 I=92m >>>> over-cooled with 2 but found 1 wasn=92t enough. >>>> >>>> JWW >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>> *On Behalf Of *Mark Steitle >>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 12:00 PM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well guys, here is a new one... at least for me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've never been able to get my 20B oil temps quite low enough for >>>> comfort. I chaulked most of it up to the high Texas temps and an engi= ne >>>> that produces gobs of horsepower (just kidding on the "gobs of horsepo= wer" >>>> part). I'm running a 10" x 11" x 2 3/4" Fluidyne dual-pass oil/air co= oler >>>> and a large (and heavy) Fluidyne oil/water exchanger. Water temps wer= e fine >>>> but the oil temps would reach 240*-245* on climb, and just barely down= to >>>> 200* in cruise. I tried different plumbing arrangements, added a cowl= flap >>>> (which helped some), etc. Still, the temps didn't want to come down. = Well, >>>> yesterday I ran the engine with the cowl off (doing some fuel >>>> pressure monitoring/adjusting), and I had just finished getting things= up >>>> to operating temperature, verified that fuel pressure was good, and th= en >>>> shut it down. I just happened to touch the end tank on the Fluidyne o= il/air >>>> exchanger and to my surprise, IT WAS STONE COLD! I touched the other = end >>>> (inlet/outlet) and it was HOT! I thought this was odd. The only thin= g that >>>> I could figure is that the dual-pass oil cooler was defective. Since = the >>>> cooler has no thermostat, I can only conclude that the internal tank >>>> separator, which is how they make a single-pass cooler into a dual-pas= s >>>> cooler, was allowing the oil to bypass the core and go directly from t= he >>>> inlet to the outlet. Well, no wonder I can't get the oil temps to com= e >>>> down!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I replaced the cooler with another unit I had on hand, ran the engine, >>>> and low and behold, both end tanks come up to temp together. I did a = couple >>>> of ground runs and themps look encouraging. But unfortunately, it was= too >>>> late to do a test flight yesterday. I'm sure the new cooler will make= a big >>>> improvement. I'm hoping it will be enough to permit me to remove the >>>> oil/water exchanger. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED! TRUST BUT >>>> VERIFY!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark S. >>>> >>>> Lancair ES/20B >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > --0015175cfa8e762a58047aba9c14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
George,
=A0
Yes, my Fluidyne cooler should easily do the job of cooling my current= engine.=A0 But I am=A0building a P-port 20B to replace this motor downstre= am, so I need to design for 375hp (375 x .8 =3D 300).=A0 The Fluidyne coole= r is 297 cu in (core size is 9 x 11 x 3).=A0 Close enough for government wo= rk.=A0
=A0
Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM, George Lendich = <lendich@aanet= .com.au> wrote:
Sorry Mark,
It's hard to keep track of who'= ;s running what, on a 20B or say 300 +hp, =A0two would still be too much, b= ut you know that already, as you said your running too cool. One of your co= olers is more than a=A0stock 13B cooler by about 14 cu"
Do you or anyone know the size of the = stock=A020B oil cooler?
=A0
Just playing with the figures, I guess= I could use .8 or .85 cu" per Hp for oil cooling, just as a linear ca= lculation.=A0 Using .8 , Mark's need for 300hp is only 240cu", how= ever each oil cooler is 189cu" ea. This area required may need to incr= ease incrementally=A0with increased HP.
Anyone with any suggestions in regard = to this?
George=A0(down under)
George,
=A0
Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement than a 13B.=
Mark
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George Lendich = <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
=A0Mark/ Jeff,
I hadn't bothered to check the siz= e before as the Mazda oil cooler is known to be more than adequate. If your= using over=A0the Mazda=A0size in cu"=A0then your over sized. Both you= r cooler areas are well over sized. I seen one chap used two Mazda coolers = when taking off on water using NOs, but he admitted it was over cooling.
George ( down under)
George,
=A0
I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, they are = about 4 1/2=A0x 18 x 2.=A0 I had considered using two RX-7 coolers arranged= in a wedge configuration.=A0 But I=A0ended up=A0going with a=A0large recta= ngular unit which I chose because the air would not have to=A0change direct= ions=A0to get through the core.=A0 Hopefully, that would provide lower cool= ing drag.=A0=A0
=A0
Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, George Lendich = <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark /Jeff,
What is the Mazda cooler size., in com= parison?
George ( down under)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:3= 4 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling=

Jeff,
=A0
I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was oriented with the inl= et/outlet=A0on the side.=A0 If there was an air lock, I would think that at= least part of the other end tank would get warm (which it doesn't).=A0= Good suggestion though.=A0
=A0
This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of your coolers.=A0= So, it should be up to the task at hand.=A0 This is assuming that it is wo= rking as designed.
=A0
Mark=A0=A0=A0

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> wrote:

Hey = Mark, I guess the only other logical reason would be an air-lock caused by = orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly the same, that is highly un= likely.

Inci= dentally, I have two, 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil coolers in series =96 I=92m = over-cooled with 2 but found 1 wasn=92t enough.

JWW<= /span>

=A0

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling

=A0

Well guys, here is a new one... at least for me.=A0 =

=A0

I've never been able to get my 20B=A0oil temps q= uite low enough=A0for comfort.=A0 I=A0chaulked=A0most=A0of it up to the hig= h Texas temps and an engine that produces gobs of horsepower (just kidding = on the "gobs of horsepower" part).=A0=A0I'm running a 10"= ; x 11" x 2 3/4"=A0Fluidyne dual-pass oil/air cooler and a large = (and heavy)=A0Fluidyne oil/water exchanger.=A0 Water temps were fine but=A0= the oil temps would reach 240*-245* on climb, and just barely down to 200* = in cruise.=A0 I tried different plumbing arrangements, added a cowl flap (w= hich helped some), etc.=A0 Still, the temps didn't want to come down.= =A0=A0Well, yesterday=A0I ran the engine with the cowl off (doing some fuel= pressure=A0monitoring/adjusting), and I had just finished getting things u= p to=A0operating temperature, verified that fuel pressure was good,=A0and t= hen shut it down.=A0 I=A0just happened to touch the end tank on the Fluidyn= e=A0oil/air exchanger and to my surprise, IT WAS STONE COLD!=A0 I touched t= he other end (inlet/outlet) and it was=A0HOT!=A0=A0I thought this was=A0odd= .=A0 The only thing that I could figure is that the dual-pass oil cooler wa= s defective.=A0 Since the cooler has no thermostat, I can only conclude tha= t the internal tank separator, which is=A0how they make=A0a single-pass coo= ler=A0into a dual-pass cooler,=A0was=A0allowing the oil to=A0bypass the cor= e and=A0go directly from=A0the inlet to the outlet.=A0 Well, no wonder I ca= n't get the=A0oil temps to come down!!!=A0=A0

=A0

I replaced the cooler with another unit=A0I had on h= and, ran the engine, and=A0low and behold, both end tanks=A0come up to temp= =A0together.=A0 I did a couple of ground runs and themps look encouraging.= =A0=A0But unfortunately,=A0it was too late to=A0do a test flight yesterday.= =A0 I'm sure the new cooler=A0will=A0make a big improvement.=A0I'm = hoping=A0it will be enough to permit me to remove the oil/water exchanger.= =A0=A0

=A0

Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GR= ANTED!=A0 TRUST BUT VERIFY!!!

=A0

Mark S.

Lancair ES/20B

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0

=




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