X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4020549 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:07:04 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2511F1734B8 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:06:19 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 42AE2BEC313 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:48:04 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <6E71E427B1AE4BD381E9682E360E5B27@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:48:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01CA7D6B.B32130F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 091214-1, 12/14/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01CA7D6B.B32130F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry Mark,=20 It's hard to keep track of who's running what, on a 20B or say 300 +hp, = two would still be too much, but you know that already, as you said your = running too cool. One of your coolers is more than a stock 13B cooler by = about 14 cu" Do you or anyone know the size of the stock 20B oil cooler? Just playing with the figures, I guess I could use .8 or .85 cu" per Hp = for oil cooling, just as a linear calculation. Using .8 , Mark's need = for 300hp is only 240cu", however each oil cooler is 189cu" ea. This = area required may need to increase incrementally with increased HP. Anyone with any suggestions in regard to this? George (down under) George,=20 Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement than a 13B. Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark/ Jeff, I hadn't bothered to check the size before as the Mazda oil cooler = is known to be more than adequate. If your using over the Mazda size in = cu" then your over sized. Both your cooler areas are well over sized. I = seen one chap used two Mazda coolers when taking off on water using NOs, = but he admitted it was over cooling. George ( down under) George,=20 I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, they are = about 4 1/2 x 18 x 2. I had considered using two RX-7 coolers arranged = in a wedge configuration. But I ended up going with a large rectangular = unit which I chose because the air would not have to change directions = to get through the core. Hopefully, that would provide lower cooling = drag. =20 Mark On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark /Jeff, What is the Mazda cooler size., in comparison? George ( down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:34 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Cooling Jeff, I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was oriented with = the inlet/outlet on the side. If there was an air lock, I would think = that at least part of the other end tank would get warm (which it = doesn't). Good suggestion though. =20 This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of your = coolers. So, it should be up to the task at hand. This is assuming = that it is working as designed. Mark =20 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Whaley = wrote: Hey Mark, I guess the only other logical reason would be an = air-lock caused by orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly the = same, that is highly unlikely. Incidentally, I have two, 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil coolers = in series =96 I=92m over-cooled with 2 but found 1 wasn=92t enough. JWW From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling Well guys, here is a new one... at least for me. =20 I've never been able to get my 20B oil temps quite low = enough for comfort. I chaulked most of it up to the high Texas temps = and an engine that produces gobs of horsepower (just kidding on the = "gobs of horsepower" part). I'm running a 10" x 11" x 2 3/4" Fluidyne = dual-pass oil/air cooler and a large (and heavy) Fluidyne oil/water = exchanger. Water temps were fine but the oil temps would reach = 240*-245* on climb, and just barely down to 200* in cruise. I tried = different plumbing arrangements, added a cowl flap (which helped some), = etc. Still, the temps didn't want to come down. Well, yesterday I ran = the engine with the cowl off (doing some fuel pressure = monitoring/adjusting), and I had just finished getting things up to = operating temperature, verified that fuel pressure was good, and then = shut it down. I just happened to touch the end tank on the Fluidyne = oil/air exchanger and to my surprise, IT WAS STONE COLD! I touched the = other end (inlet/outlet) and it was HOT! I thought this was odd. The = only thing that I could figure is that the dual-pass oil cooler was = defective. Since the cooler has no thermostat, I can only conclude that = the internal tank separator, which is how they make a single-pass cooler = into a dual-pass cooler, was allowing the oil to bypass the core and go = directly from the inlet to the outlet. Well, no wonder I can't get the = oil temps to come down!!! =20 I replaced the cooler with another unit I had on hand, ran = the engine, and low and behold, both end tanks come up to temp together. = I did a couple of ground runs and themps look encouraging. But = unfortunately, it was too late to do a test flight yesterday. I'm sure = the new cooler will make a big improvement. I'm hoping it will be enough = to permit me to remove the oil/water exchanger. =20 Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED! = TRUST BUT VERIFY!!! Mark S. Lancair ES/20B =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01CA7D6B.B32130F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry Mark,
It's hard to keep track of who's = running what, on a=20 20B or say 300 +hp,  two would still be too much, but you know that = already, as you said your running too cool. One of your coolers is more = than=20 a stock 13B cooler by about 14 cu"
Do you or anyone know the size of the=20 stock 20B oil cooler?
 
Just playing with the figures, I guess = I could use=20 .8 or .85 cu" per Hp for oil cooling, just as a linear = calculation.  Using=20 .8 , Mark's need for 300hp is only 240cu", however each oil cooler is = 189cu" ea.=20 This area required may need to increase incrementally with = increased=20 HP.
Anyone with any suggestions in regard = to=20 this?
George (down=20 under)
George,
 
Keep in mind that I have a 50% greater cooling requirement than a = 13B.
Mark
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, George = Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> = wrote:
 Mark/ Jeff,
I hadn't bothered to check the size = before as=20 the Mazda oil cooler is known to be more than adequate. If your = using=20 over the Mazda size in cu" then your over sized. Both = your=20 cooler areas are well over sized. I seen one chap used two Mazda = coolers=20 when taking off on water using NOs, but he admitted it was over=20 cooling.
George ( down under)
George,
 
I'm not at the hangar today, but off the top of my head, they = are=20 about 4 1/2 x 18 x 2.  I had considered using two RX-7 = coolers=20 arranged in a wedge configuration.  But I ended = up going=20 with a large rectangular unit which I chose because the air = would not=20 have to change directions to get through the core.  = Hopefully, that would provide lower cooling = drag.  
 
Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM, George = Lendich=20 <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark /Jeff,
What is the Mazda cooler size., = in=20 comparison?
George ( down = under)
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark Steitle
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, December = 15, 2009=20 3:34 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Oil=20 Cooling

Jeff,
 
I doubt an air lock is/was the problem as it was oriented = with=20 the inlet/outlet on the side.  If there was an air = lock, I=20 would think that at least part of the other end tank would get = warm=20 (which it doesn't).  Good suggestion though. 
 
This single cooler is almost twice the size as one of = your=20 coolers.  So, it should be up to the task at hand.  = This is=20 assuming that it is working as designed.
 
Mark   

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:20 AM, = Jeff Whaley=20 <jwhaley@datacast.com> wrote:

Hey=20 Mark, I guess the only other logical reason would be an = air-lock=20 caused by orientation =85 but if you=92ve got two exactly = the same, that=20 is highly unlikely.

Incidentally, I = have two,=20 6.25=94x11=942.75=94 oil coolers in series =96 I=92m = over-cooled with 2 but=20 found 1 wasn=92t enough.

JWW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of=20 Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 = 12:00=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Oil Cooling

 

Well guys, here is a new one... at = least for=20 me. 

 

I've never been able to get my = 20B oil temps=20 quite low enough for comfort. =20 I chaulked most of it up to the high Texas = temps and=20 an engine that produces gobs of horsepower (just kidding on = the=20 "gobs of horsepower" part).  I'm running a 10" x = 11" x 2=20 3/4" Fluidyne dual-pass oil/air cooler and a large (and = heavy) Fluidyne oil/water exchanger.  Water temps = were=20 fine but the oil temps would reach 240*-245* on climb, = and just=20 barely down to 200* in cruise.  I tried different = plumbing=20 arrangements, added a cowl flap (which helped some), = etc. =20 Still, the temps didn't want to come down.  Well,=20 yesterday I ran the engine with the cowl off (doing = some fuel=20 pressure monitoring/adjusting), and I had just finished = getting=20 things up to operating temperature, verified that fuel = pressure=20 was good, and then shut it down.  I just = happened to=20 touch the end tank on the Fluidyne oil/air exchanger = and to my=20 surprise, IT WAS STONE COLD!  I touched the other end=20 (inlet/outlet) and it was HOT!  I thought = this=20 was odd.  The only thing that I could figure is = that the=20 dual-pass oil cooler was defective.  Since the cooler = has no=20 thermostat, I can only conclude that the internal tank = separator,=20 which is how they make a single-pass = cooler into a=20 dual-pass cooler, was allowing the oil = to bypass the=20 core and go directly from the inlet to the = outlet. =20 Well, no wonder I can't get the oil temps to come=20 down!!!  

 

I replaced the cooler with another = unit I=20 had on hand, ran the engine, and low and behold, both = end=20 tanks come up to temp together.  I did a = couple of=20 ground runs and themps look encouraging.  But=20 unfortunately, it was too late to do a test flight = yesterday.  I'm sure the new cooler will make = a big=20 improvement. I'm hoping it will be enough to = permit me to=20 remove the oil/water exchanger.  

 

Moral of the story... DON'T TAKE = ANYTHING FOR=20 GRANTED!  TRUST BUT VERIFY!!!

 

Mark S.

Lancair ES/20B

 

      




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