X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from spamgate.prontonetworks.com ([64.125.136.12] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4003843 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 09:19:46 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.125.136.12; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from smtpauthproxy.prontonetworks.com (smtpauthproxy.prontonetworks.com [64.125.136.39]) by spamgate.prontonetworks.com (8.13.1/8.12.5) with ESMTP id nB5EJ4au031052 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 06:19:04 -0800 Received: from WschertzPC (adsl-163-8-3.pns.bellsouth.net [74.163.8.3]) by smtpauthproxy.prontonetworks.com (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id nB5EIXc08025 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 06:18:33 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Bill Schertz" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire Types Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:18:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01CA7583.90461CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (spamgate.prontonetworks.com [64.125.136.12]); Sat, 05 Dec 2009 06:19:04 -0800 (PST) X--MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X--MailScanner: Found to be clean X--MailScanner-From: wschertz@comcast.net This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01CA7583.90461CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of things about this -- If you are referring to Greg Richter's = article on aircraft wiring (the link below seems broken): He founded = Blue Mountain Avionics and the EFIS. I found out the hard way that if = the voltage drops below about 11 volts, the EFIS-1 starts to act up, and = if it goes to below 10 volts it causes damage to the power supply = requiring replacement and recalibration at the factory. Blue Mountain is = now out of business. Re: Teflon or Tefzel -- the Tefzel was designed for aircraft use, and = is tougher than Teflon, and easier to strip. There was extensive = discussion on the Aeroelectric list about this, and Bob Nuckolls = recommends Tefzel. I side with Bob over Greg on this issue. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing From: josrph berki=20 Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:08 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire Types Jeff, Teflon wire is more prone to cold flow in that the insulation will move = at room or cold temps when the wire is excessively restricted. This = also caused one of NASAs launch vehicles to fail. I prefer the PVC = insulation. It is readily available in different colors and the heat = ceiling is so high that if the insulation sees that kind of a temp your = AC might be on fire. Proper fusing and wire routing is more important = than insulation melting points. Just my opinion. Joe Berki Limo EZ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Luckey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire Types I read thru Greg's paper and found it very interesting. He recommends = Teflon wire as opposed to Tefzel wire.=20 =20 I'm wondering: what are the main differences between the two types of = insulation. I remember reading something about Teflon being softer or = less durable - but I don't remember the details. =20 =20 Are there any A&P/EE's out there who want to tackle this question? = (mere mortals can also feel free to respond as well ;) =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 14:57 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity =20 George, He is probably not talking to folks who install an electrically = dependant alternative engine. If you just forget the problems that = might arise getting Tracy's controllers, etc, and the 12V auto starter = to work on 24V, you still have to accept the fact that that "big 24V = battery" can fail. If is does and you don't have a second battery, it = will get very quiet in the cockpit until the screaming starts. Also = don't forget that the only way you can get a 24V battery is to tie two = 12V batteries together. If you go with one 24V battery, you have the = same battery weight plus the weight of redundant busses. If you go with = two batteries, you now have 4 times the weight of one 12V battery. If = you try to mix the systems so you have 24V and 12V, you have a = nightmare. The only real advantage seems to me to be wire weight (smaller wire = for 24V). I am pretty sure that I ate more weight for last nights = dinner than the entire wireing system in my plane :>) =20 If you really want to save weight in your plane, go on a diet! (I = don't want to hear that you are 7 feet tall and weigh 120 lbs! :>)) =20 Bill B=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:45 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity Kelly, Being electronically challenged I had a quick look. It says 24 volts = is better for aircraft use eliminating the need for extra batteries and = alternator, I'm wondering why builders collectively don't already go = that way. Are there complications or additional expenses to be = considered or are auto conversions typically locked in to a 12 volt = system for one reason or another - perhaps just the alternator. George ( down under) Group, Some of you may have already seen this and to others this = may be knowledge that you carry=20 around in your head and use everyday but to someone like me whose = schooling in AC/DC (Navy)=20 electricity was 50 plus years ago and also something I do not use = everyday the following link has refreshed my old brain..............Hope some of the group finds it = useful.............. =20 = http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01CA7583.90461CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A couple of things about this -- If you = are=20 referring to Greg Richter's article on aircraft wiring (the link below = seems=20 broken): He founded Blue Mountain  Avionics and the EFIS. I found = out the=20 hard way that if the voltage drops below about 11 volts, the EFIS-1 = starts to=20 act up, and if it goes to below 10 volts it causes damage to the power = supply=20 requiring replacement and recalibration at the factory. Blue Mountain is = now out=20 of business.
 
Re: Teflon or Tefzel -- the Tefzel was = designed for=20 aircraft use,  and is tougher than Teflon, and easier to strip. = There was=20 extensive discussion on the Aeroelectric list about this, and Bob = Nuckolls=20 recommends Tefzel. I side with Bob over Greg on this issue.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire=20 Types

Jeff,
 
Teflon wire is more prone to cold flow = in that the=20 insulation will move at room  or cold temps when the wire is = excessively=20 restricted.  This also caused one of NASAs launch vehicles to = fail.  I=20 prefer the PVC insulation.  It is readily available in different = colors and=20 the heat ceiling is so high that if the insulation sees that kind of a = temp your=20 AC might be on fire.  Proper fusing and wire routing is more = important than=20 insulation melting points.  Just my opinion.
 
Joe Berki
Limo EZ
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff Luckey=20
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 11:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer = in AC/DC=20 Electricity - Wire Types

I read thru = Greg=92s=20 paper and found it very interesting.  He recommends Teflon wire = as=20 opposed to Tefzel wire.

 

I=92m = wondering: what=20 are the main differences between the two types of insulation. I = remember=20 reading something about Teflon being softer or less durable =96 but I = don=92t=20 remember the details. 

 

Are there = any=20 A&P/EE=92s out there who want to tackle this question? (mere = mortals can=20 also feel free to respond as well ;)

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill = Bradburry
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 14:57
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity

 

George,

He is probably not talking to folks who = install an=20 electrically dependant alternative engine.  If you just forget = the=20 problems that might arise getting Tracy=92s controllers, etc, and the = 12V auto=20 starter to work on 24V, you still have to accept the fact that that = =93big 24V=20 battery=94 can fail.  If is does and you don=92t have a second = battery, it=20 will get very quiet in the cockpit until the screaming starts.  = Also=20 don=92t forget that the only way you can get a 24V battery is to tie = two 12V=20 batteries together.  If you go with one 24V battery, you have the = same=20 battery weight plus the weight of redundant busses.  If you go = with two=20 batteries, you now have 4 times the weight of one 12V battery.  = If you=20 try to mix the systems so you have 24V and 12V, you have a=20 nightmare.

The only real advantage seems to me to be = wire weight=20 (smaller wire for 24V).  I am pretty sure that I ate more weight = for last=20 nights dinner than the entire wireing system in my plane =20 :>)

 

If you really want to save weight in your = plane, go on=20 a diet!  (I don=92t want to hear that you are 7 feet tall and = weigh 120=20 lbs!  :>))

 

Bill = B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 3:45=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer = in AC/DC=20 Electricity

Kelly,

Being electronically = challenged I=20 had a quick look. It says 24 volts is better for aircraft use = eliminating the=20 need for extra batteries and alternator, I'm wondering why builders=20 collectively don't already go that way. Are there complications or = additional=20 expenses to be considered or are auto conversions typically locked in = to a 12=20 volt system for one reason or another - perhaps just the=20 alternator.

George ( down=20 under)

Group,

        =  Some of you may have already seen this and to others this = may be=20 knowledge that you carry

around in your head and use everyday but = to someone=20 like me whose schooling in AC/DC=20 (Navy) 

electricity was 50 plus years ago and also = something=20 I do not use everyday the following link=20 has

refreshed my old brain..............Hope = some of the=20 group finds it = useful..............

 

      http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf

--
Kelly = Troyer=20
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =

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