X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f216.google.com ([209.85.220.216] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c2) with ESMTP id 3980754 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:02:46 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.216; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxm8 with SMTP id 8so1242160fxm.27 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:02:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=oP6oxb4+Q/Qp+vLfFDtLrbjjBhp4ErWablHdvDWdYww=; b=AA5wEXUnGUCurreImInYCg0ZrbU2Q5fRKM0z/9+JcIOTub/fEmMi81MWXa/zhodJCF eQdQWIp71GNHtFxYZbYWxOzawsszK7K9EqLWxnp54WEY7qgZF8+x5g7UynzGbxFeuCzH 7jL3H2NV8R76fL88XtXVK0oQ0FixAxAI02BPY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=aPJbsX/aMLFej11QREeANfbNTrmFJTwpz5s936i+mcXmpQwBPfh9l0d0nsB6SCKHXJ YlDGglf5QVqFeqdNfdTMUi21yfhCzDawRKSC7FipaxkHUB+gH6/GUERWmdoK2XC5cEGp XvEPM0RORBuk6dq1GadfYUpVKwrER8n0hPVc8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.36.197 with SMTP id u5mr3685869bkd.81.1258552929648; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:02:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:02:09 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0911180602p2b43c619yf965f86f68cd2a80@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] No trafic "Ping" From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555771e4d7fa90478a5b0a5 --00032555771e4d7fa90478a5b0a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, I'm having a hard time visualizing the stack of 3/4" square tubing exhaust as you described. Do you have any pictures? Mark On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Lynn Hanover wrote: > Thomas, > > Sounds like you're making good progress. The 20B makes a great a/c > engine. Biggest problem is cooling. Pay close attention to size > and placement of radiators & plenum design. And don't underestimate the = oil > cooling requirements. That's 1/3 of the cooling load. Make sure the hea= ted > air can get out of the cowl. > > I think the jury is still out on the "perfect" muffler. The only thing > that I know that works is a turbo-charger as it homoginizes the exhaust > pulses. But up till now, those have been problematic, and they're heavy. > The fishtail may work, if you can design it to survive for any length of > time. Ed Anderson tried it and it self-destructed in a very short time. > But then I don't know the details of his design (the devil's in the > details). Also, Al G's Velocity has a nice muffler/resonator arrangement > that seems to work well. May be worth a look. > > The p-port design solves a lot of the intake design headaches. You'll ha= ve > to fabricate a slide throttle, but those are pretty straight forward and = can > be built with a standard drill press. Then you use three 180* bends to g= et > the intakes up and over the engine (to the cool side), then into a > plenum/filter and you're done. Much easier than fabricating a six runner > side-port manifold. > > Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving, > Mark S. > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Thomas Mann wrote: > >> Well there ya go Mark=85=85.. just the person I need to talk to. >> >> >> >> I=92m still building my canard aircraft. I just came up out of the >> basement/shop after putting in another 4 hours on my split canopy frame >> plug. I should have my mold layup complete this weekend and a CF version= of >> the frame by the end of Turkey Day weekend. >> >> >> >> My power plant of choice is a 20B P-Port. I have the PSRU from Tracy and >> an engine mount from the Cozy Girrrls. >> >> >> >> I=92m tracking the two big issues on my mind as I work towards the engin= e >> part of the project. >> >> Intake and Exhaust. >> >> >> >> I really like the cool side intake design. Is anyone fabricating this fo= r >> a 20B or is it a DIY project. >> >> >> >> As far as exhaust, I find the fish tail design interesting. I wonder if >> the exhaust was split out into a flat wide pattern projecting the sound = into >> several directions at once if it would dissipate the sound waves enough = to >> result in a quieter result =85=85=85. Or maybe just annoy more people at= the same >> time. >> >> >> >> I=92m hoping to be addressing this in the spring. >> >> >> >> T Mann >> >> Here is the company that has the tube bends in aluminum and stainless f= or >> intake and exhaust systems. >> > http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/contact-us.html > > The intakes may be Siamesed to require only three tubes over the engine > just like a Periphery port housing. The disadvantage might be a bit less > power but probably still over 300, and the advantages are, > you don't take the engine apart, you don't change the design, and you don= 't > weld on the rotor housings. > > The three runner tubes can be joined in a flat sided log manifold with a > big automotive throttle body on one end. > > Since dozens are flying with a throttle body and no difficulties the slid= e > throttle seems less important. > > While not built to reduce engine noise, the waste gate exhaust pipes on > CART Indy cars were designed to fit between the bodywork and a rear tire.= A > narrow gap. So the outlet is a stack of 3/4" square tubing stacked up wel= ded > and of course chromed. No chance for a flutter failure there. > > The Cozy Girrrls make some great pieces. > > http://www.cozygirrrl.com/opening.htm > > Lynn E. Hanover > >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Mark Steitle >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:46 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ping >> >> >> >> Thomas, >> >> >> >> Some of us are still hanging around reading/sending emails (when we shou= ld >> be working). Maybe there are a bunch of us that don't have time to emai= l >> because we're hard at work on our projects. Could happen. >> >> >> >> Personally, I've been making some mods to my cooling system by changing >> from two coolers in series to two parallel loops. It required some >> additional AN fittings, so I am waiting for my order from Earl's. >> >> >> >> Also, in my spare time, I'm working on building up a new p-port 20B, >> including a new tangential muffler and slide throttle. Lots of irons in= the >> fire right now. Received my new apex seals today... waiting for the TES >> o-rings from Creavey Seal. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Thomas Mann wrote: >> >> Did everyone leave for Thanksgiving already? >> > --00032555771e4d7fa90478a5b0a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,
=A0
I'm having a hard time visualizing the stack of 3/4" square t= ubing exhaust as you described.=A0 Do you have any pictures?=A0
=A0
Mark

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Lynn Hanover <lehanover@gmail.= com> wrote:
Thomas,
=A0
Sounds like you're making good progress.=A0 The 20B makes a great = a/c engine.=A0 Biggest problem is cooling.=A0 Pay close attention to size a= nd=A0placement of radiators & plenum design.=A0 And don't underesti= mate the oil cooling requirements.=A0 That's 1/3 of the cooling load.= =A0 Make sure the heated air can get out of the cowl.=A0
=A0
I think the jury is still out on the "perfect" muffler.=A0 T= he only thing that I know that works is a turbo-charger as it homoginizes t= he exhaust pulses.=A0 But up till now, those have been problematic, and the= y're heavy.=A0 The fishtail may work, if you can design it to survive f= or any length of time.=A0 Ed Anderson tried it and it self-destructed in a = very short time.=A0 But then I don't know the details of his design (th= e devil's in the details).=A0 Also, Al G's Velocity has a nice muff= ler/resonator arrangement that seems to work well.=A0 May be worth a look.= =A0
=A0
The p-port design solves a lot of the intake design headaches.=A0 You&= #39;ll have to fabricate a slide throttle, but those are pretty straight fo= rward and can be built with a standard drill press.=A0 Then you use three 1= 80* bends to get the intakes up and over the engine (to the cool side), the= n into a plenum/filter and you're done.=A0 Much easier than fabricating= a=A0six runner side-port=A0manifold.
=A0
Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving,=A0
Mark S.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Thomas Mann <tmann@n200lz.com> wrote:

Well= there ya go Mark=85=85.. just the person I need to talk to.

=A0<= /span>

I=92= m still building my canard aircraft. I just came up out of the basement/sho= p after putting in another 4 hours on my split canopy frame plug. I should = have my mold layup complete this weekend and a CF version of the frame by t= he end of Turkey Day weekend.

=A0<= /span>

My p= ower plant of choice is a 20B P-Port. I have the PSRU from Tracy and an eng= ine mount from the Cozy Girrrls.

=A0<= /span>

I=92= m tracking the two big issues on my mind as I work towards the engine part = of the project.

Inta= ke and Exhaust.

=A0<= /span>

I re= ally like the cool side intake design. Is anyone fabricating this for a 20B= or is it a DIY project.

=A0<= /span>

As f= ar as exhaust, I find the fish tail design interesting. I wonder if the exh= aust was split out into a flat wide pattern projecting the sound into sever= al directions at once if it would dissipate the sound waves enough to resul= t in a quieter result =85=85=85. Or maybe just annoy more people at the sam= e time.

=A0<= /span>

I=92= m hoping to be addressing this in the spring.

=A0<= /span>

T Ma= nn

Here is the company that has the tube bends in alumi= num and stainless=A0 for intake and exhaust systems.=A0

=A0
The intakes may be Siamesed to require only three tubes over the engin= e just like a Periphery port housing. The disadvantage might be a bit less = power but probably still over 300, and the advantages are,
you don't take the engine apart, you don't change the design, = and you don't weld on the rotor housings.
=A0
The three runner tubes can be joined in a flat sided log manifold with= a big automotive throttle body on one end.
=A0
Since dozens are flying with a throttle body and no difficulties the s= lide throttle seems less important.
=A0
While not built to reduce engine noise, the waste gate exhaust pipes o= n CART Indy cars were designed to fit between the bodywork and a rear tire.= A narrow gap. So the outlet is a stack of 3/4" square tubing stacked = up welded and of course chromed. No chance for a flutter failure there. =A0=
=A0
The Cozy Girrrls make some great pieces.
=A0
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover

=A0

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of= Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:46 PM
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ping

=A0

Thomas,

=A0

Some of us are still hanging around reading/sending = emails (when we should be working). =A0Maybe there are a bunch of us that d= on't have time to email because we're hard at work on our projects.= =A0Could happen. =A0

=A0

Personally, I've been making some mods to my coo= ling system by changing from two coolers in series to two parallel loops. = =A0It required some additional AN fittings, so I am waiting for my order fr= om Earl's. =A0

=A0

Also, in my spare time, I'm working on building = up a new p-port 20B, including a new tangential muffler and slide throttle.= =A0Lots of irons in the fire right now. Received my new apex seals today..= . waiting for the TES o-rings from Creavey Seal.

=A0

Mark=A0

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Thomas Mann <tmann@n200lz.com> wrote:

Did everyone leave for Thanksgiving already?

=
<= br> --00032555771e4d7fa90478a5b0a5--