X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.25] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c1) with ESMTP id 3961319 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:20:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.25; envelope-from=cozy4pilot@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so410347qwd.25 for ; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:19:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yYaehySNE44OnGsHxpL4J1aZQm+1YC4DiAENbCBSrjQ=; b=IpThDqiWU85SYmNC1ERG24raJ9oH7qq2L0IRgrgxF0u+XL9GMghzoy6wM4IhVZu6IP qfWgA5bvvvSwclYWCoznNipJV6KkTrDk1gNWKouTgqAEH6L1tNWtCbGDEqqqKoHGcNqq lBrKForm4IfXO3j70oxxmvdP/TS/U1+M4nKhw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RwMVq/jHyUTzIqxk879UMJxHu8AQjth9ZzoAOtbtQoWSza6kFGcyJMGIfCPgNeGoJv 04mRqT2meE/KE6QCSarm4hwDJkK/d30XNG/+QgznBukBRQ9WWbueWQhZveGXQHwqm7OY I9w+6pDNN18521OshJ5O+hvv2E+SGn23RrZQQ= Received: by 10.224.82.202 with SMTP id c10mr3633250qal.173.1257700787285; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:19:47 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?192.168.1.102? (nc-71-49-37-191.dhcp.embarqhsd.net [71.49.37.191]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm1954561qyk.10.2009.11.08.09.19.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:19:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4AF6FDB0.5020601@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:19:44 -0500 From: Steve Brooks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bobby, The 2nd gen CAS is 4 wires, though two of them get hooked together. I've doubled checked those connections tot he EC-2 and verified continuity lead by lead. I've never tried to look at the CAS signal, and I'm not sure what it looks like. But, my test equipment is limited to a digital voltmeter, and a logic probe. I wish that I still had an oscilloscope at time like this. Nothing like a picture. Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > Steve, > > Sure sounds like the same symptoms I observed with my CAS problems. I > know the Renesis CAS is different. Is your CAS a two wire circuit. If so > I would try reversing the CAS wires at the EC3. If the EC3 is lowering > the CAS voltage (speculation on my part) I would want the voltage > correction on the CAS output to the EC3. If on the input the voltage > might be to low during cranking. Just speculation. > > Bobby > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Steve Brooks > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:52 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after > engine replacement > > I've been testing it all morning, and while I have tested it in a number > of ways, I still have no clue why I'm not getting consistent spark. > I pulled a plug from each rotor, and clamped it to a ground, so that > first of all, the engine would spin faster with a plug out of each > rotor, and second, I could see two spark plugs instead of just one. > > I probably did 15-20 cranks of 5 seconds each. I "usually" get an > inital spark off of the front rotor and nothing else, but there were > times that it didn't spark at all, and once that it sparked once after 2 > or 3 seconds of cranking. > > On the rear rotor, I do not get the initial spark, but it does spark > maybe 5 or 6 times during 5 seconds of cranking, but very hit and miss. > > I might see two close together, followed by nothing for a second or two. > > I checked the coil wiring from the EC-2 plug to the GM wiring harness > connector, and all was perfect. I also pulled two connector off of the > LS1 coils and checked for continuity. Still no issue. since I had one > apart, I decided to hook up the logic probe to the trigger pin. With > the master on, I see a low signal, and when I start cranking, the low > signal goes away. Though I could not see any LEDs on the probe blink, > when I flipped the switch to pulses, it was showing steady pulses. > Obviously of a very short duration, or I should have seen the high / low > LED's blinking. I am guessing that since the low signal goes away when > cranking, the EC-2 must be seeing a sufficient RPM from the CAS. But > this is guessing. > I also verified all of the power andf grounds to the coils and EC-2. I > am just not finding anything wrong in the wiring. I had redone the > wiring, and although I was pretty careful about tagging everything, > there is always a risk of getting something wrong, but I checked and > double checked with nothing out of place. > > I ran the mode 8 test again to watch both plugs I had out, and it > produces consistent sparks that are bright blue. > > The only wiring that I haven't double checked is the new wiring to the > EM-3. But, there aren't many connections from the EM-3 to the EC-2, and > the EM-3 seems to be communicating with the EC-2,as I am not getting the > "NO-OP" that I have heard others talk about. I really have not messed > with the EM-3 much so far though, because I've first been trying to get > the engine started. > > Right now, I'm recharging the battery. > > Steve > > > Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> My CAS was always wired correctly also. My coils \ plugs fired in test >> > > >> mode but not during cranking. Are you having problems with one plugs >> during cranking are all plugs? >> >> Bobby >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:11 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >> after engine replacement >> >> I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so I >> > > >> assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours >> on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one, >> so I think it is correct. >> >> I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that >> Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and >> EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. >> >> Steve >> >> Bobby J. Hughes wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced it >>> with you old CAS. Three questions. >>> >>> Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS >>> and >>> >>> >> >> >>> the EC2? Diode matrix etc. >>> >>> Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was >>> running and the new engine \ CAS. >>> >>> Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version. >>> >>> >>> I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very >>> similar to what your describing. >>> >>> Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being tested >>> > > >>> and used by some folks. Engine started fine. >>> I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the >>> >>> >> "fix" >> >> >>> on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not >>> start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine started >>> > > >>> right up. Problem solved...sort of. >>> I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high CAS >>> > > >>> voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during >>> testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up >>> installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H >>> and Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was >>> at >>> >>> >> >> >>> a loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he has >>> made to my EC2. >>> >>> Bobby Hughes >>> RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err >>> 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the master >>> switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops to 10.2 >>> VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any thoughts >>> on that. >>> >>> I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was >>> surprised to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 >>> > volts. > >>> >>> >> >> >>> It has a rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the >>> aircraft, so perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is powering >>> the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this test, I did >>> not >>> >>> >> >> >>> have the fuel pump turned on. >>> >>> I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is >>> really what I intended with the emergency power bypass. >>> >>> The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure >>> the actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during >>> cranking, but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It >>> stayed at zero the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't >>>> think >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if >>>> interconnected >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> - it >>> >>> >>> >>>> may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or >>>> > dropping > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> too >>> >>> >>> >>>> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the >>>> required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you would >>>> > > >>>> even get the first spark. >>>> >>>> Just my 0.02 >>>> >>>> Ed Anderson >>>> >>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>> >>>> Matthews, NC >>>> >>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>> >>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>> >>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>> >>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> >>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>> >>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >>>> after engine replacement >>>> >>>> Ed, >>>> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The >>>> battery >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two >>>> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine >>>> stuff, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have >>>> pretty >>>> >>>> >> >> >>>> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I >>>> recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked >>>> to >>>> >>>> >> >> >>>> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> block. >>> >>> >>> >>>> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also >>>> have >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical >>>> buss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I >>>> could >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> front. >>> >>> >>> >>>> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I >>>> will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it >>>> does >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> or not. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? >>>>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New >>>>> engine >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> may >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> have higher compression and may take more juice than previous >>>>> engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old engine >>>>> was also hard to start makes me wonder. >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> Ed Anderson >>>>> >>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>>> >>>>> Matthews, NC >>>>> >>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>>> >>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>>> >>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> >>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>>> >>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM >>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement >>>>> >>>>> That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default. >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> Steven W. Boese wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> >>>>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the >>>>>> default >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at >>>>> RPM's >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> less >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The >>>>> greater >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a strong >>>>> > > >>>>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's, >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded >>>>> mode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> 8 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> setting, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in order >>>>> > > >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> make >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> this change. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Steve Boese >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> Of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM >>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement >>>>>> >>>>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block, >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> didn't used to be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the >>>>>> connections, >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition test >>>>>> > > >>>>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I >>>>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while there >>>>>> > > >>>>>> will be another spark, but not very often. >>>>>> >>>>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have >>>>>> double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm >>>>>> meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to check >>>>>> > > >>>>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the spark >>>>>> plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, is is >>>>>> wet >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> with fuel, which is no surprise. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if you >>>>>> have any suggestions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Steve Brooks >>>>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> signature >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> signature >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> >>> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >