X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3888843 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:38:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A069E1738E7 for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:38:16 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 76851BEC00E for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:38:14 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <00E649A1851B416FB4E6638BA3B6B4DD@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:38:16 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA4F1E.5171B4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 091016-0, 10/16/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA4F1E.5171B4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Yes the leaded gas was what I was alluding to. In the event unleaded = isn't available on trips, which I suspect will most likely be the case, = the wide band sensor will degrade and give false readings of air fuel = ratios. Unless your just needing it for the initial set up!? George ( down under) George, not an expert on wide band sensors or narrow band for that = matter. =20 But, I do remember being told numerous times that even a few seconds = of running on leaded fuel would ruin the sensor. Well, it might for the = purpose it is used in the automobile CPU as I expect the response time = slows down due to led fouling. But, response time that may be way too = slow for the CPU wouldn't even be notice by us Humans. I have over 160 = hours on narrow band O2 sensor running 100LL. =20 Now, here is a link to an article written by a gent who visited the = Bosch O2 sensor manufacturing plant in South Carolina. sessions on the = dyno and limited use on track, but not for an entire racing season. = http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/accessories_electr= onics/0407sc_bosch/index.html =20 Down about =BE down the article about the visit there is a summary of = Oxygen Sensor Facts - There he states that Bosch claims the wide band = O2 sensor will become degraded after about 200 hour of lead gas. =20 So, from that perspective and for our use as Air/Fuel ratio = indicators, it would appear to me that the wide band O2 sensor may be = useful for our purposes. But, must admit I have not tried one out as = yet. =20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 6:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's = the missing power? =20 Ed, Isn't the wide band sensor more prone to giving false readings ( = corruption) due to fouling. George ( down under) Hi Bill, =20 I could be wrong, but, I'm fairly certain that the position of the = Ec2 manual mixture control does not necessarily have any deterministic = relationship to air/fuel ratio of the EC2. The resulting air/fuel ratio = is a combination of (among other things) the MCT bin (pointed to by = manifold pressure) in which the engine is operating plus the effect of = the manual mixture control knob. =20 =20 The narrow band O2 sensor response curve is pretty crappy for any = sort of linear interpolation - but, most have a range of from a few 10 = millivolts to approx 1.1 volt. With the higher voltage 1.0 representing = higher air/fuel ratios - somewhere in the vicinity of 12 - 10 :1 = air/fuel ratio. Stioch (14.7:1) voltage is normally around 0.45 volts = (or 450 millvolts) and that is generally the only value that is really = rather accurate on a narrow band O2 sensor. =20 =20 So with my EFISM if the air/fuel ratio indictor is in the middle of = its range on the display, it should be yellow in color. I also have a = feature that when looking at the air/fuel indicator screen (the one with = fuel flow and fuel used values displayed), if you press button b3 and b4 = together you will get displayed in the air/fuel ratio window of the = actual voltage being read from the O2 sensor. So if the EFISM indicator = is yellow and in the middle the voltage should read somewhere close to = 450 mv. IF it is green and near the right hand limit the voltage will = probably be reading around 900 mv indicating an higher air/fuel ratio. = If red and to the left side then it will be reading less than 450 mv. =20 =20 However, remember that the curve for the narrow band O2 sensor is = not very suitable for interpolation. The wide band O2 sensor is much = better and therefore you can get more accurate indication of air/fuel = ratio. =20 So almost all narrow band O2 air/fuel ratio indictors are only = useful in giving you a relative indication of leaner or richer. =20 In fact, I am considering a future modification/option/user = selectable Narrow band or wide band O2 sensor for the EFISM. Initially = the wide band O2 sensors were in the $250 -$300 range, but now have = dropped down to around $80 for the borsch model which makes them more = cost feasible. =20 I probably did not answer your question, but that is as close as I = could come. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the missing power? =20 Good point, Ed. How much change does the mixture knob on the EC-2/3 allow? Say for = instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with the mixture knob at = the center position, how far would he have to turn the knob to the right = to achieve 12.65 AFR? I ask this because the A/F gage will not read = that mixture. It will be topped out well before that mixture ratio = occurs. How do you determine best power mixture? Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's = the missing power? Hi Mike, =20 I guess I'm missing something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich = at full throttle, then it's not solely an airflow problem - it appears = to me that it's the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 = A/F ratio then that means you have more oxygen available in your system = to support burning more fuel =3D more power. You should be able to = enrich the mixture particularly at full throttle (assuming you are = wanting full power at full throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio = for best power. I know you know all of this - that is why I am puzzled = by your statement that you feel it's an airflow problem when on the = surface with the Stoich ratio it would appear it's a lack of sufficient = fuel. =20 =20 =20 =20 Ed. =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? =20 Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My nephew had a = skateboarding accident last weekend and is in the hospital in a = chemically induced coma until his brain swelling is under control. And I = thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay away from = skateboards. =20 Tracy - My mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect = an airflow issue rather than fuel. =20 Al - my vacuum gauge is located in the plenum directly behind the = throttle plates. =20 Lynn - I agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. = The inlet is also pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in = the pics I sent. I think I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and = see if it gets me anywhere. If not I'll live with it for a while. =20 Kelly - always tough to determine if the problem is an engine issue = or if the load is simply too much for the engine to overcome. I'm going = to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see what = happens. =20 Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? =20 Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article will help you use it = for troubleshooting. =20 http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2393/article.html =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? I dont have a regular manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial = type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum = gauge was indicating 4" of vacuum. =20 Where are you measuring the 4" vacuum? If it is near the ports it = is no unusual; if it is out before the runners; something is wrong. =20 Al __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA4F1E.5171B4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
Yes the leaded gas was what I was = alluding to. In=20 the event unleaded isn't available on trips, which I suspect will most = likely be=20 the case, the wide band sensor will  degrade and give false = readings of air=20 fuel ratios.
Unless your just needing it for the = initial set=20 up!?
George ( down under)

George, not = an expert=20 on wide band sensors or narrow band for that=20 matter.

 

  But, = I do=20 remember being told numerous times that even a few seconds of running = on=20 leaded fuel would ruin the sensor.  Well, it might for the = purpose it is=20 used in the automobile CPU as I expect the response time slows down = due to led=20 fouling.  But, response time that may be way too slow for the CPU = wouldn=92t even be notice by us Humans.  I have over 160 hours on = narrow=20 band O2 sensor running 100LL.

 

Now, here = is a link=20 to an article written by a gent who visited the Bosch O2 sensor = manufacturing=20 plant in South=20 Carolina.=20 sessions on the dyno and limited use on track, but not for an entire = racing=20 season.

http://www.superchevy.com/technica= l/engines_drivetrain/accessories_electronics/0407sc_bosch/index.html<= o:p>

 

Down about = =BE down the=20 article about the visit there is a summary of Oxygen Sensor Facts = - =20 There he states that Bosch claims the wide band O2 sensor will become = degraded=20 after about 200 hour of lead gas.

 

So, from = that=20 perspective and for our use as Air/Fuel ratio indicators, it would = appear to=20 me that the wide band O2 sensor may be useful for our purposes.  = But,=20 must admit I have not tried one out as = yet.

 

Ed

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 = 6:07=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich = A/F=20 Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing=20 power?

 

Ed,

Isn't the wide band = sensor more=20 prone to giving false readings ( corruption) due to=20 fouling.

George ( down=20 under)

Hi=20 Bill,

 

I could = be wrong,=20 but, I=92m fairly certain that the position of the Ec2  manual = mixture=20 control does not necessarily have any deterministic relationship to = air/fuel=20 ratio of the EC2. The resulting air/fuel ratio is a combination of = (among=20 other things) the MCT bin (pointed to by manifold pressure)  in = which=20 the engine is operating plus the effect of the manual mixture = control=20 knob. 

 

The = narrow band O2=20 sensor response curve is pretty crappy for any sort of linear = interpolation=20 =96 but, most have a range of from a few 10 millivolts to approx 1.1 = volt.  With the higher voltage 1.0 representing higher air/fuel = ratios=20 =96 somewhere in the vicinity of 12 =96 10 :1 air/fuel ratio.  = Stioch=20  (14.7:1) voltage is normally around 0.45 volts (or 450 = millvolts) and=20 that is generally the only value that is really rather accurate on a = narrow=20 band O2 sensor. 

 =20

So with = my EFISM if=20 the air/fuel ratio indictor is in the middle of its range on the = display, it=20 should be yellow in color.  I also have a feature that when = looking at=20 the air/fuel indicator screen (the one with fuel flow and fuel used = values=20 displayed), if you press button b3 and b4 together you will get = displayed in=20 the air/fuel ratio window of the actual voltage being read from the = O2=20 sensor.  So if the EFISM indicator is yellow and in the middle = the=20 voltage should read somewhere close to  450 mv.  IF it is = green=20 and near the right hand limit the voltage will probably be reading = around=20 900 mv indicating an higher air/fuel ratio.  If red and to the = left=20 side then it will be reading less than 450 mv. =20

 

However, = remember=20 that the curve for the narrow band O2 sensor is not very suitable = for=20 interpolation.  The wide band O2 sensor is much better and = therefore=20 you can get more accurate indication of air/fuel=20 ratio.

 

So almost = all=20 narrow band O2 air/fuel ratio indictors are only useful in giving = you a=20 relative indication of leaner or = richer.

 

In fact, = I am=20 considering a future modification/option/user selectable Narrow band = or wide=20 band O2 sensor for the EFISM.  Initially the wide band O2 = sensors were=20 in the $250 -$300 range, but now have dropped down to around $80 for = the=20 borsch model which makes them more cost=20 feasible.

 

I = probably did not=20 answer your question, but that is as close as I could=20 come.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 8:57=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Stoich A/F=20 Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing=20 power?

 

Good point, = Ed.

How much change does the mixture knob on = the EC-2/3=20 allow?  Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle = with the=20 mixture knob at the center position, how far would he have to turn = the knob=20 to the right to achieve 12.65 AFR?  I ask this because the A/F = gage=20 will not read that mixture.  It will be topped out well before = that=20 mixture ratio occurs.  How do you determine best power=20 mixture?

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 8:35=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Stoich = A/F Ratio??=20 : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

Hi=20 Mike,

 

I guess = I=92m missing=20 something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle, = then it=92s=20 not solely an airflow problem =96 it appears to me that it=92s the = lack of=20 sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F ratio then that = means you=20 have more oxygen available in your system to support burning more = fuel =3D=20 more power.   You should be able to enrich the mixture=20 particularly at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full power = at full=20 throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power.  I = know you=20 know all of this - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that = you feel=20 it=92s an airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio = it would=20 appear it=92s a lack of sufficient fuel.  =

 

 

 

Ed.  =

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, October 15, = 2009 11:22=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the=20 missing power?

 

Sorry for my absence = on a=20 topic I started. My nephew had a skateboarding accident last = weekend=20 and is in the hospital in a chemically induced coma until his brain = swelling=20 is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were = dangerous. Stay=20 away from skateboards.

 

Tracy - My=20 mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow = issue=20 rather than fuel.

 

Al - my vacuum gauge = is located=20 in the plenum directly behind the throttle=20 plates.

 

Lynn - I=20 agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The = inlet is=20 also pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in the pics I = sent. I=20 think I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and see if it gets = me=20 anywhere. If not I'll live with it for a=20 while.

 

Kelly - always tough = to=20 determine if the problem is an engine issue or if the load is simply = too=20 much for the engine to overcome. I'm going to experiment with the = shallow=20 dive several have suggested and see what=20 happens.

 

Mike

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 = PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing=20 power?

 

Since you have the vacuum gauge, this = article will=20 help you use it for troubleshooting.

 

 http://autospeed.co= m/cms/A_2393/article.html

 

Bill = B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, = 2009 7:22=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the=20 missing power?

I = dont have a=20 regular manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum = gauge ( I=20 really gotta get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge was = indicating 4"=20 of vacuum.

 

Where = are you=20 measuring the 4=94 vacuum?  If it is near the ports it is no = unusual;=20 if it is out before the runners; something is=20 wrong.

 

Al



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA4F1E.5171B4E0--