X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3888157 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:36:14 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20091016143537.FHFT11920.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:35:37 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.133.78]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id tSbd1c0061hf1Cg04Sbd81; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:35:37 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=eUYrJpLGLCIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=YrmIdGhKAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=OaVUAdrmZLl0BabB12kA:9 a=U4vG-NvZRIeyxd6rFJUA:7 a=BKon9CYqbHqzJyxrHjGpyA5YiOUA:4 a=VJOXKkN81gcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=-uXtFE4Vr57bmzd-:21 a=tASPc8kI6wYLHjqI:21 a=GuTq8Rn6XhC9TycQzsgA:9 a=MN4gSaufk52RmXs3lBwA:7 a=wB1910XTsMahoTkQhf2I7ATIUm8A:4 a=0ClzVj8Jz1dm2fpi:21 a=OGt2nUn1UV499y4B:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:36:14 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01CA4E33.5751AEB0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: AcpOYCsTmnCbR9ssRD+yQHJBGhbmBwAFOWQg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CA4E33.5751AEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What I found on my 20B, on the dyno; was the max power was 125-150 rich = of peak EGT. That put the EGTs right around 1600F on the 9.0 : 1 rotors at 6000 rpm. At 5000 rpm the EGTs were about 1550F. =20 On my EC2, about 2:30 position gives me max power; 12:00 position gives = me about 50F lean of peak; so I'd say roughly 2 clock positions to go from stochiometric to max power. =20 YMMV, =20 Al =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's = the missing power? =20 Good point, Ed. How much change does the mixture knob on the EC-2/3 allow? Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with the mixture knob at = the center position, how far would he have to turn the knob to the right to achieve 12.65 AFR? I ask this because the A/F gage will not read that mixture. It will be topped out well before that mixture ratio occurs. = How do you determine best power mixture? Bill B =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Hi Mike, =20 I guess I'm missing something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at = full throttle, then it's not solely an airflow problem - it appears to me = that it's the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F ratio = then that means you have more oxygen available in your system to support = burning more fuel =3D more power. You should be able to enrich the mixture particularly at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full power at = full throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power. I know you = know all of this - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that you feel = it's an airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio it would = appear it's a lack of sufficient fuel. =20 =20 =20 =20 Ed. =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? =20 Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My nephew had a skateboarding accident last weekend and is in the hospital in a chemically induced = coma until his brain swelling is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay away from skateboards. =20 Tracy - My mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow issue rather than fuel. =20 Al - my vacuum gauge is located in the plenum directly behind the = throttle plates. =20 Lynn - I agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The inlet is also pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in the = pics I sent. I think I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and see if it = gets me anywhere. If not I'll live with it for a while. =20 Kelly - always tough to determine if the problem is an engine issue or = if the load is simply too much for the engine to overcome. I'm going to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see what happens. =20 Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? =20 Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article will help you use it for troubleshooting. =20 http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2393/article.html =20 Bill B =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? I dont have a regular manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge = was indicating 4" of vacuum. =20 Where are you measuring the 4" vacuum? If it is near the ports it is no unusual; if it is out before the runners; something is wrong. =20 Al __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CA4E33.5751AEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What I found on my 20B, on the = dyno; was the max power was 125-150 rich of peak EGT.  That put the EGTs = right around 1600F on the 9.0 : 1 rotors at 6000 rpm.  At 5000 rpm the = EGTs were about 1550F.

 

On my EC2, about = 2:30 position = gives me max power; 12:00 position gives me about 50F lean of peak; so I’d say = roughly 2 clock positions to go from stochiometric to max = power.

 

YMMV,

 

Al

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 4:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

 

Good point, Ed.

How much change does the mixture knob on the = EC-2/3 allow?  Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with = the mixture knob at the center position, how far would he have to turn the = knob to the right to achieve 12.65 AFR?  I ask this because the A/F gage = will not read that mixture.  It will be topped out well before that mixture = ratio occurs.  How do you determine best power mixture?

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 8:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

Hi = Mike,

 

I guess = I’m missing something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle, then it’s not solely an airflow problem – it appears to me that it’s the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F = ratio then that means you have more oxygen available in your system to support burning more fuel =3D more power.   You should be able to = enrich the mixture particularly at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full = power at full throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power.  I = know you know all of this - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that = you feel it’s an airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio = it would appear it’s a lack of sufficient fuel.  =

 

 

 

Ed.  =

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, October = 15, 2009 11:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the missing power?

 

Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My nephew had a skateboarding accident last = weekend and is in the hospital in a chemically induced coma until his brain swelling = is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay = away from skateboards.

 

Tracy - My mixture monitor = shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow issue rather than = fuel.

 

Al - my vacuum gauge is = located in the plenum directly behind the throttle plates.

 

Lynn - I agree that the TB = inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The inlet is also pretty obstructed by = the cowl which isnt visible in the pics I sent. I think I'll make an attempt = to clean this up some and see if it gets me anywhere. If not I'll live with = it for a while.

 

Kelly - always tough to = determine if the problem is an engine issue or if the load is simply too much for the = engine to overcome. I'm going to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see what happens.

 

Mike

----- Original Message = -----

Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article = will help you use it for troubleshooting.

 

 http://autospeed.co= m/cms/A_2393/article.html

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Tuesday, October = 13, 2009 7:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the missing power?

I dont have a regular = manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta = get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge was indicating 4" of = vacuum.

 

Where are you measuring the 4” vacuum?  If it is near the ports it = is no unusual; if it is out before the runners; something is = wrong.

 

Al



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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