X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3877583 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:29:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20091007112914663.XRQE18886@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:29:14 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Absorbtion muffler [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 07:30:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA471F.FCE22DC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcpHBKi+eP82prdaTNGhse0sAltELQAPK4Vw In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20091007112914663.XRQE18886@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA471F.FCE22DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, you are correct, Mike. Typical Glass pack style. Certainly not against anyone trying out something different and the one you describe is certainly different - it could do the job, but just wanted to pass on my experience. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Absorbtion muffler [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video Ed, I assume all of your attempts were built along the lines of a typical glasspak or "Swiss muffler" with packing either wrapped or stuffed around some sort of perf tube? The type of muffler I'm considering is the one I mentioned having seen over the weekend. The reasons I think it might work and live behind the rotary are: 1) Lots of internal volume. The muffler I saw was at least 8 feet long. 2) The perforated tube down the center ran the full length of the muffler providing lots of perforations to dissipate the exhaust energy. 3) The muffler introduces fresh air into the muffler to cool the exhaust. I have no idea if it will really work and I'm not rushing into anything. But I went out to Miramar and watched the airplane depart on sunday. It was virtually silent. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:29 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Absorbtion muffler [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video Good luck, Mike, on the absorption muffler with a rotary. I have tried a number of different approaches including mufflers with ceramic packing that can withstand 2000F+. The heat is no problem, the problem is the exhaust shock wave pulverizes the ceramic/fiberglass/stainless steel/etc into small pieces in a relative short time. Its true they were good in suppressing sound while they lasted, but two weeks - 1 month was about the limit. I still dream of doing a remake of a muffler design I came up with which had 3" 1/8" stainless steel discs (about 4-5) in a 36" tube. The disc were slotted and "blades" bent until the disc looked a bit like a fan. The blades were bent at an approx 45 deg angle. If you looked down the tube with the disc in it all you saw was solid metal - however the blades provide room for exhaust gas to flow around them. The theory was the shock wave would see basically a solid disc and reflect some/most of its energy back and forth between discs, whereas the gas could more or less freely flow around and through the blades. The concept worked well in that my hangar neighbors were all remarking how quite the engine sounded and I could still get a static rpm of 6000. The problem was I am not a welder and while I had the disc clamped with Jam nuts to a SS thread rod through their center - it was not sufficient to keep the exhaust from loosening the nuts and causing the discs to spin like a turbine wheel. IF I could have welded the tips of the blades to the tube then it may have been viable. But, not a welder and got tire of messing with exhaust so I hung two Hushpower mufflers and went flying. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:58 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video George, Thanks. Read through it yesterday. Nothing too earth shattering here. What the article really didnt discuss and what I think is the major problem we face in aircraft which is less of a problem in a car is the need to get sufficient muffler volume. Finding space for a muffler that actually has sufficient volume to do any good on an airplane is problematic. Havent yet seen the muffler that relies on "reflective" (aka passive cancellation) that really works. Tried a variety of them on various cars over the years, and of course the homebrewed "spiral flow" muffler on my airplane currently. Still waiting for someone to come up with one that actually works and will fit on my airplane. Meanwhile I am intrigued by the absorptive design which I posted here the other day. Its the only thing I've seen that actually provides plenty of volume, appears to be capable of both muffling and lasting, and wont look too terrible. I'm thinking about trying to throw together something cheap and easy to try out before committing a bunch of time and effort. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video Mike, The address is right, but it didn't work when I tried it also. What I did was use up to Miscellaneous on the address and clicked on exhaust etc on the LHS of the screen - OK. George ( down under) ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Wills To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video That link didnt work for me George. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 3:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video Mike, Here's a good site for general info on mufflers, mine and Bill Jepson design is around deflection. www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/exhausttheory.html George ( down under) ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Wills To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:34 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] engine runup video For anyone who hasnt had that first engine run and is looking for some motivation. A buddy visited the hangar a few weeks ago and shot some video of an engine runup. He posted it to his website and you can find it here: http://www.stinsonvoyager.com/images/MikeWills13bEngineRun.wmv This was shot right after I re-installed my original muffler after the aborted DNA muffler test. Noticeable in the video is the big staging bog. I had this tuned out about 15 minutes after he shot the video. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA471F.FCE22DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, you are correct, Mike.  = Typical Glass pack style.

 

Certainly not against anyone trying = out something different and the one you describe is certainly different = – it could do the job, but just wanted to pass on my = experience.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, October = 07, 2009 12:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Absorbtion muffler [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup = video

 

Ed,

 

 I assume all of your attempts were built along = the lines of a typical glasspak or "Swiss muffler" with packing = either wrapped or stuffed around some sort of perf = tube?

 

 The type of muffler I'm considering is the one = I mentioned having seen over the weekend. The reasons I think it might = work and live behind the rotary are:

1) Lots of internal volume. The muffler I saw was at = least 8 feet long.

2) The perforated tube down the center ran the full = length of the muffler providing lots of perforations to dissipate the exhaust = energy.

3) The muffler introduces fresh air into the muffler = to cool the exhaust.

 

I have no idea if it will really work and I'm not = rushing into anything. But I went out to Miramar and watched the airplane depart on sunday. It was virtually = silent.

 

Mike

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: = Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:29 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Absorbtion muffler [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup = video

 

Good luck, Mike, on the absorption = muffler with a rotary.  I have tried a number of different approaches = including mufflers with ceramic packing that can withstand 2000F+.  The heat = is no problem, the problem is the exhaust shock wave pulverizes the ceramic/fiberglass/stainless steel/etc into small pieces in a relative = short time.  Its true they were good in suppressing sound while they = lasted, but two weeks – 1 month was about the = limit.

 

I still dream of doing a remake of = a muffler design I came up with which had 3” 1/8” stainless = steel discs (about 4-5) in a 36” tube.  The disc were slotted and “blades” bent until the disc looked a bit like a fan.  = The blades were bent at an approx 45 deg angle.  If you looked down the = tube with the disc in it all you saw was solid metal – however the = blades provide room for exhaust gas to flow around them.  The theory was = the shock wave would see basically a solid disc and reflect some/most of its = energy back and forth between discs,  whereas the gas could more or less freely = flow around and through the blades.

 

The concept worked well in that my = hangar neighbors were all remarking how quite the engine sounded and I could = still get a  static rpm of 6000.

 

The problem was I am not a welder = and while I had the disc clamped with Jam nuts to a SS thread rod through = their center – it was not sufficient to keep the exhaust from loosening = the nuts and causing the discs to spin like a turbine wheel.  IF I = could have welded the tips of the blades to the tube then it may have been = viable.  But, not a welder and got tire of messing with exhaust so I hung two = Hushpower mufflers and went flying.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Tuesday, October = 06, 2009 12:58 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = engine runup video

 

George,

 

Thanks. Read through it yesterday. Nothing too earth shattering here. What the article really didnt discuss and what I = think is the major problem we face in aircraft which is less of a problem in a = car is the need to get sufficient muffler volume. Finding space for a muffler = that actually has sufficient volume to do any good on an airplane is problematic.

 

Havent yet seen the muffler that relies on "reflective" (aka passive cancellation) that really works. = Tried a variety of them on various cars over the years, and of course the = homebrewed "spiral flow" muffler on my airplane currently. Still waiting = for someone to come up with one that actually works and will fit on my = airplane.

 

Meanwhile I am intrigued by the absorptive design = which I posted here the other day. Its the only thing I've seen that actually = provides plenty of volume, appears to be capable of both muffling and lasting, = and wont look too terrible. I'm thinking about trying to throw together something = cheap and easy to try out before committing a bunch of time and = effort.

 

Mike

 

 

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: Sunday, = October 04, 2009 11:38 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video

 

Mike,

The address is right, but it didn't work when I tried = it also.

What I did was use up to Miscellaneous on the address = and clicked on exhaust etc on the LHS of the screen - = OK.

George ( down under)

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike = Wills

Sent: Monday, = October 05, 2009 11:45 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video

 

That link didnt work for me = George.

 

Mike

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: Sunday, = October 04, 2009 3:45 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: engine runup video

 

Mike,

Here's a good site for general info on mufflers, mine = and Bill Jepson design is around deflection.

George ( down under)

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike = Wills

Sent: Monday, = October 05, 2009 2:34 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] engine runup video

 

For anyone who hasnt had that first engine run and is looking for some motivation. A buddy visited the hangar a few weeks ago = and shot some video of an engine runup. He posted it to his website and you = can find it here:

 

 

This was shot right after I re-installed my original = muffler after the aborted DNA muffler test. Noticeable in the video is the big = staging bog. I had this tuned out about 15 minutes after he shot the = video.

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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