X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f184.google.com ([209.85.221.184] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860445 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:52:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.184; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk14 with SMTP id 14so1672836qyk.26 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=+lwwXxigVmcxnJY3ovpn+CF3KGVa1t0ovd01vLEvqDk=; b=NpjjtaOIDREdrMGBbrjB5KUYu4A1l5UWCf2ZhUMlVq6bKL3I22Jyl1vfl5YDAaMEQ0 O6VkkzrzmbEZCUMZqk9bCqLPuFKCNQo0ZCfNKoDbd1K9mSdINinNPKCDPvyV69OwKEMu ztLVGY5x5IoZTfQDoDUiTxntwdJdVfn/vTqNM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=TK5QWtUUaK2vawTlPtPvPb1XExQJZw6U+9K0zBBO994ivhGZRSfTLhh+QaPr7/lwy5 4nPgceQ7GRQHhSFb9B+x+7kfH/GhV4NlgY0C19+hh1lPAvN/+dr9jyNT4zF4P40KgbqZ IWW8EE186mrEeu96cwTpLPkt4SdE2hPMd5AhU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.43.164 with SMTP id w36mr3032161qae.336.1253487114138; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:51:54 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 59b994151326e63a Message-ID: <1b4b137c0909201551m633ee4efp730d6a6ea1fbda45@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f99e07e2b36c204740a36e4 --00c09f99e07e2b36c204740a36e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 "No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across the radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. " It was not zero but low. about 1.2" H2O. This is at 120 MPH BTW. This was with cowl flap open. The reference is to the aircraft static system so it should be accurate. Have not measured the front side of heat exchangers yet but I assumed diffusers were working well based on cowl off flight test. Will have to verify this of course. Just finished the VG flight test. No measurable difference. Also flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a bit). Slightly better cooling but not the answer. I'm trying to restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the louvers. I can't see how they would help much, especially on the bottom of cowl. Maybe on the top? Somebody STOP me! Tracy On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across the > radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the cockpit, > you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. It > the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, there will be little or no > velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will not help. Al? said he had > his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help speed the air back up as it goes out. > > > > Bill B > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments > > "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no > doubt on this. " > > Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years > (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost > always caused by false assumptions. > > It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the > mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered your test > proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were betting, > I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about the wiring might > need examination as well. > > This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was showing up > on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line running very > close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that the oil > line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was actually coming from > something at the opposite end of the engine. What exactly was it Ed? It > defied all logic in that it was not even close to where it showed up and the > oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under the cowl. > > Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all my > own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in the > open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below where it > was. The temperatures were down a little but not near what I wanted. Only > a little better than the big giant opening I tried. At this point I was > ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad place to put a > cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my working assumption is that the > pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow through radiator > and oil cooler. I had installed a pressure probe under the cowl but forgot > to look at the reading. Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I > had, I made another flight to check the under cowl pressure. Duhh, almost > nothing! Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, > and everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few other spots to > be sure about this. There is something odd going on with airflow under the > cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. > > One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by > installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. This is so > non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to try > I might have to do it while scratching my head. > > Tracy > . > > > On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber > wrote: > > Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice > here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested here and in > the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it > started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down and started back up > with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. > Kewl. > > > > The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and > installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking at > the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing the > filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see all > inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). But, NO > JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping from the > filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. I know the > rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I would not think it > would be so much that it is overwhelming this standard mount and seal. This > is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the > USA. Looks like many others I have seen. Y'all have any ideas. > > > > Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a welder > by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless turbo exhaust > manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my manifold.. As > was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if > mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 > inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the > engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will have to make a very > small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT the > wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail. So, I ordered a > stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion. > My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate > extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. We > looked at the options and he took the manifold with him saying he would cut > off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few > days. Kewl. > > > > The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I even > transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked > fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the lasted > progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh? It will > not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear. I decided to > start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test. Damn, no > chattering of the injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual > click when I primed it). Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark. All > the other electrics are working fine. > > > > I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector clattering > away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on Rotor one did not > seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector that I had and tried > again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. > Looks like I have some more wire issues. Damn, I though I had really gotten > past most of those. > > > > I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The other > electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are not. > Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there own power > source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, it is the same > on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and > decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually > gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata > gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's > ain't all that bad > > > > I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. Upon my > return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after > work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. > > > > As always my friends, Thanks. > > > > All the best, > > > > Chris Barber > > Houston > > > Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous > e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible > for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that > any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information > contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you > have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by > telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its > attachments without reading them. Thank you. > > > --00c09f99e07e2b36c204740a36e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = "No air pressure under the c= owl??=A0 What is the pressure drop across the radiator?=A0 What is the zero pressure referenced to?=A0 If it is the cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. "=

It was not zero but low.=A0 about 1.2" H2O.=A0 This is = at 120 MPH BTW.=A0 =A0=A0 This was with cowl flap open.=A0 The reference is= to the aircraft static system so it should be accurate.=A0 Have not measur= ed the front side of heat exchangers yet but I assumed diffusers were worki= ng well based on cowl off flight test.=A0 Will have to verify this of cours= e.

Just finished the VG flight test.=A0 No measurable difference.

A= lso flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a bit).=A0 = Slightly better cooling but not the answer.=A0

I'm trying to re= strain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the louvers.=A0 I can= 9;t see how they would help much, especially on the bottom of cowl.=A0 Mayb= e on the top?=A0 Somebody STOP me!

Tracy

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 P= M, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

No air pressure under the cowl??=A0 What is the pressure drop across the radiator?=A0 What is the zero pressure referenced to?=A0 If it is the cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero.=A0 It the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, there will be little or no velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will not help.=A0=A0 Al? said he had his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help speed the air back up= as it goes out.

=A0

Bill B

=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 20= , 2009 9:03 AM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments

"It IS seeping from the filter se= al and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. "

Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the = years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost al= ways caused by false assumptions.

It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the mathematical=A0 odds are staggeringly small.=A0 You haven't offered you= r test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were betti= ng, I'd put my money on something else.=A0 The assumptions about the wiring might need examination as well.

This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had.=A0 The oil was showing up on the back side of one of his rads.=A0 There was an oil line running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that the oil line was leaking.=A0 Long story short, the oil leak was actually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine.=A0 What exactly was it Ed?=A0 It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow un= der the cowl.=A0=A0

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all my= own assumptions. =A0 I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in the open position.=A0 The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below=A0 where it was.=A0 The temperatures were down a little but not near what I wanted.=A0 Only a little better than the big giant opening I tried.=A0 At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the a= irplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet.=A0 Keep in mind that my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler.=A0 I had installed a pressure prob= e under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading.=A0=A0 Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to check the un= der cowl pressure.=A0 Duhh,=A0 almost nothing!=A0 Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and everything looked OK.=A0=A0 I need to check pressure in a few other spots to be sure about this.=A0 There is something odd going on with airflow under the cowl but I&= #39;m back ti head scratching mode again.

One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet.=A0 This is so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to= try I might have to do it while scratching my head.

Tracy
.


On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber= @bellairepolice.com> wrote:

Made it out to the hangar for = most the day and decided to take the advice here and modify my start up routine base= d on what was suggested here and in the manual.=A0 So, I cranked the mixture ful= l rich with no priming and it started up in a few blades.=A0 Ran for a while, shut down and started back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine.=A0 Kewl.

=A0

The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter.=A0 As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter seal.=A0 The old one looked ok, but since replacing the filters no less than three times=A0and knowing that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter).=A0 But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts.=A0 It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no do= ubt on this.=A0 I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engin= es but I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this stan= dard mount and seal.=A0 This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the USA.=A0 Looks like many others I have seen.=A0 Y'all have any ideas.=A0 =

=A0

Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade.=A0 He came down as I was working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me mo= dify my manifold..=A0 As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside down.=A0 It puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to= the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link.=A0 I will have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper clearanc= e EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail.=A0 So, = I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion.=A0 My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly.=A0 We looked at the options and he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the= new part on in a few days. Kewl.

=A0

The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning.=A0 I even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked fine.=A0 HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh?=A0 It will not restart.=A0 I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear.=A0 I decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test.=A0 Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even though I wa= s able to hear an individual click when I primed it).=A0 Put on=A0a test plug and wire and got no spark.=A0 All the other electrics are working fine= .

=A0

I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of the inectors.=A0 The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to fire.=A0 Hmmmmm?=A0 I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few s= econds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues.=A0 Damn, I thoug= h I had really gotten past most of those.

=A0

I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down.=A0 The other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are not.=A0 Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this.=A0 Yes, it is the same on A and B.=A0 Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided to crawl into bed with a= hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar = with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that=A0bad <g>

=A0

I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all.=A0 Upon my return to the hangar (today was=A0MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring.

=A0

As always my friends, Thanks.

=A0

All the best,

=A0

Chris Barber

Houston


Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-m= ails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible= for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information containe= d in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have receiv= ed this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments with= out reading them. Thank you.

=A0


--00c09f99e07e2b36c204740a36e4--