X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860358 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:43:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:46:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA3A33.6EAE1148" Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F315EB6C@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Thread-Index: Aco5+6SAb5bTKgGBRnWSz4yVWT236gANj80A References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA3A33.6EAE1148 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet. =20 I still would like to try the area directly behind the spinner in the top cowl. My plane should be back in the air in a couple of weeks with larger inlets and several other non-rotary related changes. If the changes are successful I may block the bottom exit and try a top exit just for fun. I have some fiberglass help scheduled from the end of November and need to finalize my cowl by them.=20 =20 =20 http://www.melmoth2.com/texts/Cooling%20flow.htm This link is a good read.=20 =20 Angle Top Side Bottom 0.0 -0.35 (116) -0.06 (103) -0.06 (103) 4.0 -0.52 (123) -0.10 (105) 0.00 (100) 8.0 -0.69 (130) -0.16 (108) -0.07 (103) Bobby Hughes ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 7:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. " Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost always caused by false assumptions. It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered your test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were betting, I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about the wiring might need examination as well. This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was showing up on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that the oil line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was actually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine. What exactly was it Ed? It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under the cowl. =20 Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all my own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in the open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below where it was. The temperatures were down a little but not near what I wanted. Only a little better than the big giant opening I tried. At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler. I had installed a pressure probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading. Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to check the under cowl pressure. Duhh, almost nothing! Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few other spots to be sure about this. There is something odd going on with airflow under the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. This is so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to try I might have to do it while scratching my head. Tracy . On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber wrote: Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested here and in the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down and started back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. Kewl. =20 The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing the filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this standard mount and seal. This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the USA. Looks like many others I have seen. Y'all have any ideas. =20 =20 Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my manifold.. As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail. So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion. My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. We looked at the options and he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. Kewl. =20 The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh? It will not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear. I decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test. Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual click when I primed it). Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark. All the other electrics are working fine.=20 =20 I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues. Damn, I though I had really gotten past most of those. =20 I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are not. Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, it is the same on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that bad =20 I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. Upon my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. =20 As always my friends, Thanks. =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA3A33.6EAE1148 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At this point I was ready to conclude that = the underside=20 of the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet.
 
I still would like to try the area directly behind = the=20 spinner in the top cowl. My plane should be back in the air in a = couple of=20 weeks with larger inlets and several other non-rotary related changes. = If the=20 changes are successful I may block the bottom exit and try a top exit = just for=20 fun. I have some fiberglass help scheduled from the end of November and = need to=20 finalize my cowl by them.
 
 
http://www.melmoth2.com/texts/Cooling%20flow.htm<= FONT=20 face=3DArial>    =20 This link is a good read.
 

Angle=20          Top=20             &= nbsp;   Side=20             &= nbsp; Bottom

  0.0     =20 -0.35 (116)      -0.06=20 (103)      -0.06 (103)

  4.0     =20 -0.52 (123)      -0.10=20 (105)       0.00 (100)

  8.0     =20 -0.69 (130)      -0.16=20 (108)      -0.07 = (103)

Bobby=20 Hughes

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 7:03 AM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day = /=20 Cooling experiments

"It IS=20 seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt = on=20 this. "

Just from observing many rotary = installation=20 'de-bugings' over the years (including my own) I noticed that difficult = to solve=20 problems are almost always caused by false assumptions.

It is = possible to=20 get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the = mathematical  odds=20 are staggeringly small.  You haven't offered your test proofs as to = why you=20 know they are bad and leaking but if I were betting, I'd put my money on = something else.  The assumptions about the wiring might need = examination as=20 well.

This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had.  = The oil=20 was showing up on the back side of one of his rads.  There was an = oil line=20 running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption = was made=20 that the oil line was leaking.  Long story short, the oil leak was = actually=20 coming from something at the opposite end of the engine.  What = exactly was=20 it Ed?  It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where = it=20 showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under = the=20 cowl.  

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling = experiments=20 are blowing away all my own assumptions.   I kluged up the cowl = flap I=20 mentioned and fixed it in the open position.  The trailing edge of = outlet=20 is about 1 1/2 " below  where it was.  The temperatures were = down a=20 little but not near what I wanted.  Only a little better than the = big giant=20 opening I tried.  At this point I was ready to conclude that the = underside=20 of the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet.  Keep in = mind that=20 my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to = allow=20 good airflow through radiator and oil cooler.  I had installed a = pressure=20 probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading.   = Figuring I=20 might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to = check the=20 under cowl pressure.  Duhh,  almost nothing!  Checked the = probe=20 to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and everything looked=20 OK.   I need to check pressure in a few other spots to be sure = about=20 this.  There is something odd going on with airflow under the cowl = but I'm=20 back ti head scratching mode again.

One builder on the RV list = said he=20 got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge = of the=20 cooling outlet.  This is so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why = it would=20 work but its so easy to try I might have to do it while scratching my=20 head.

Tracy
.



On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber = <cbarber@bellairepolice.com= >=20 wrote:
Made it = out to the hangar=20 for most the day and decided to take the advice here and modify my = start up=20 routine based on what was suggested here and in the manual.  So, = I=20 cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a = few=20 blades.  Ran for a while, shut down and started back up with = mixture in=20 about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. =20 Kewl.
 
The first bad news is that = I replaced my=20 romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter.  As I have = mentioned=20 here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter seal.  The old = one looked=20 ok, but since replacing the filters no less than three times and = knowing=20 that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND = filter=20 (K&N 2004 filter).  But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where = the filter=20 mounts.  It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose=20 connections...no doubt on this.  I know the rotary's oil pressure = is=20 higher than other engines but I would not think it would be so much = that it is=20 overwhelming this standard mount and seal.  This is just a = standard screw=20 on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the USA.  Looks like = many=20 others I have seen.  Y'all have any ideas. 
 
Second good thing is a guy = from a few=20 hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade.  He came down as = I was=20 working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day = after=20 offering to help me modify my manifold..  As was mentioned here = before,=20 the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside = down.  It=20 puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher than = the oil=20 inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears my = aileron=20 control link.  I will have to make a very small modification to = the lower=20 cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with = the=20 Mistral intake fuel rail.  So, I ordered a stainless copy of the = cast=20 iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion.  My welder = friend said=20 it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around = which=20 should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly.  We looked at = the=20 options and he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the = old=20 wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. = Kewl.
 
The second bad news is = that I was=20 doing some continued tuning.  I even transferred A to B as B was = a bit=20 rough from the factory and it worked fine.  HOWEVER, later in the = day,=20 after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the = continued=20 leak) the engine stopped. Huh?  It will not restart.  I = checke the=20 first fuel filter and it is clear.  I decided to start at the = beginning=20 and just run the EC2's diagnostice test.  Damn, no chattering of = the=20 injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual click when I = primed=20 it).  Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark.  = All the=20 other electrics are working fine.
 
I pulled my extra EC2 = out and=20 installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of = the=20 inectors.  The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to fire.  = Hmmmmm?  I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, = and it=20 didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. Looks = like I have=20 some more wire issues.  Damn, I though I had really gotten past = most of=20 those.
 
I am really confused = about the EC2=20 seeming to just shut down.  The other electrical componants are = all=20 working, but the EC2 componants are not.  Strange since I thought = each=20 items (injectors and coils) had there own power source thus should not = shut=20 down as a "team" like this.  Yes, it is the same on A and = B. =20 Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided = to=20 crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious = enough to=20 hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, = she helps=20 me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all = that bad=20 <g>
 
I anxiously wait = commentary and=20 possible explanations from y'all.  Upon my return to the hangar = (today=20 was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be = looking at=20 my, apparntly piss poor, wiring.
 
As always my friends,=20 Thanks.
 
All the = best,
 
Chris = Barber
Houston

Warning:=20 This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails = attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally=20 privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person = responsible=20 for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that any=20 disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information = contained=20 in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you = have=20 received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by = telephone=20 at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its = attachments=20 without reading them. Thank=20 you.


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