X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860211 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:01:47 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090920160113.FZPB21106.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:01:13 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.90.215]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id j41A1c0014emyWU0441BjW; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:01:12 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=5RvM0Nif2WQA:10 a=cEsSX396AAAA:8 a=5ycKPoNX4WLWC5u8QSwA:9 a=oTe8YUIdiUXFmsor-boA:7 a=od2tM6h8St9drzbBHjyd-nyn7-wA:4 a=Xs21W9NlLssA:10 a=CzG_uCeGblAA:10 a=a5-OGnwyBokA:10 a=RIn4wS1BLIo-X27T:21 a=GUWFLpvbnJW1BS3e:21 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=y3iwU8Bl3HyO5jAyoGEA:9 a=FvkL2WdpTGcnE-AV97IA:7 a=rYLe2jJ97mG47yFQ04baPZJ89B0A:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 09:01:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA39D0.E5F749D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA39D0.E5F749D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm with you on the VGs. If your cowl flap didnt create enough negative = pressure to acheive the desired results I dont see VGs being more = effective. I dont recall ever seeing VGs used on any sort of factory = built airplane for this sort of problem and I'd think if it were that = simple the manufacturers would be doing it. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:03 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose = connections...no doubt on this. " Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the = years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are = almost always caused by false assumptions. It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but = the mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered your = test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were = betting, I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about the = wiring might need examination as well. This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was = showing up on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line = running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was = made that the oil line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was = actually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine. What = exactly was it Ed? It defied all logic in that it was not even close to = where it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow = under the cowl. =20 Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away = all my own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and = fixed it in the open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 = 1/2 " below where it was. The temperatures were down a little but not = near what I wanted. Only a little better than the big giant opening I = tried. At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the = airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my = working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to = allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler. I had installed a = pressure probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading. = Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another = flight to check the under cowl pressure. Duhh, almost nothing! = Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and = everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few other spots to = be sure about this. There is something odd going on with airflow under = the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by = installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. This is so = non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to = try I might have to do it while scratching my head. Tracy . On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber = wrote: Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the = advice here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested = here and in the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no = priming and it started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down = and started back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock = position....and it started fine. Kewl. The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and = installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking = at the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing = the filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see = all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). = But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping = from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on = this. I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but = I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this = standard mount and seal. This is just a standard screw on remote oil = mount made out of AL...Made in the USA. Looks like many others I have = seen. Y'all have any ideas. =20 Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a = welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless = turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my = manifold.. As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I = had wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil = return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) = to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will = have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me = proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral = intake fuel rail. So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I = had, based on John Slades suggestion. My welder friend said it would = not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should = allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. We looked at the options and = he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old wastgate = extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. Kewl. The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I = even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it = worked fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about = the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. = Huh? It will not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is = clear. I decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's = diagnostice test. Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even though I = was able to hear an individual click when I primed it). Put on a test = plug and wire and got no spark. All the other electrics are working = fine.=20 I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector = clattering away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on = Rotor one did not seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector = that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few = seconds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues. = Damn, I though I had really gotten past most of those. I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The = other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are = not. Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there = own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, = it is the same on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped = for the night and decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk = (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for = a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too = much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that bad I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. = Upon my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow = night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. As always my friends, Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or = previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information = that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the = person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any = of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is = STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, = please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy = the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. = Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA39D0.E5F749D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm with you on the VGs. If your cowl = flap didnt=20 create enough negative pressure to acheive the desired results I dont = see VGs=20 being more effective. I dont recall ever seeing VGs used on any sort of = factory=20 built airplane for this sort of problem and I'd think if it were that = simple the=20 manufacturers would be doing it.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 20, = 2009 6:03=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another mixed=20 day / Cooling experiments

"It IS seeping from the filter seal = and NOT the=20 two hose connections...no doubt on this. "

Just = from=20 observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years = (including my=20 own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost always = caused by=20 false assumptions.

It is possible to get several bad filters or = two bad=20 filter mounts but the mathematical  odds are staggeringly = small. =20 You haven't offered your test proofs as to why you know they are bad = and=20 leaking but if I were betting, I'd put my money on something = else.  The=20 assumptions about the wiring might need examination as = well.

This=20 reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had.  The oil was = showing up on=20 the back side of one of his rads.  There was an oil line running = very=20 close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that = the oil=20 line was leaking.  Long story short, the oil leak was actually = coming=20 from something at the opposite end of the engine.  What exactly = was it=20 Ed?  It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where = it showed=20 up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under the=20 cowl.  

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling = experiments=20 are blowing away all my own assumptions.   I kluged up the cowl = flap I=20 mentioned and fixed it in the open position.  The trailing edge = of outlet=20 is about 1 1/2 " below  where it was.  The temperatures were = down a=20 little but not near what I wanted.  Only a little better than the = big=20 giant opening I tried.  At this point I was ready to conclude = that the=20 underside of the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet.  = Keep in=20 mind that my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is = too=20 high to allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler.  I = had=20 installed a pressure probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the=20 reading.   Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I = had, I=20 made another flight to check the under cowl pressure.  = Duhh,  almost=20 nothing!  Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, = pinched,=20 etc, and everything looked OK.   I need to check pressure in = a few=20 other spots to be sure about this.  There is something odd going = on with=20 airflow under the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode = again.

One=20 builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by = installing=20 VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet.  This is so = non-intuitive=20 that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to try I might = have to=20 do it while scratching my head.

Tracy
.



On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber = <cbarber@bellairepolice.com= >=20 wrote:
Made it = out to the=20 hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice here and = modify my=20 start up routine based on what was suggested here and in the = manual. =20 So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started = up in a=20 few blades.  Ran for a while, shut down and started back up = with=20 mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started = fine. =20 Kewl.
 
The first bad news is = that I replaced=20 my romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter.  As I = have=20 mentioned here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter = seal.  The=20 old one looked ok, but since replacing the filters no less than = three=20 times and knowing that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I = replaced=20 the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter).  But, NO JOY. It is = still=20 leaking where the filter mounts.  It IS seeping from the filter = seal=20 and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this.  I know = the=20 rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I would not = think it=20 would be so much that it is overwhelming this standard mount and = seal. =20 This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of = AL...Made in=20 the USA.  Looks like many others I have seen.  Y'all have = any=20 ideas. 
 
Second good thing is a = guy from a few=20 hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade.  He came down = as I was=20 working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day = after=20 offering to help me modify my manifold..  As was mentioned here = before,=20 the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside = down.  It=20 puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher = than the=20 oil inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears = my=20 aileron control link.  I will have to make a very small = modification to=20 the lower cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate = interfeared=20 with the Mistral intake fuel rail.  So, I ordered a stainless = copy of=20 the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion.  My = welder=20 friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate = extension=20 around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly.  = We=20 looked at the options and he took the manifold with him saying he = would cut=20 off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on = in a few=20 days. Kewl.
 
The second bad news is = that I was=20 doing some continued tuning.  I even transferred A to B as B = was a bit=20 rough from the factory and it worked fine.  HOWEVER, later in = the day,=20 after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the = continued=20 leak) the engine stopped. Huh?  It will not restart.  I = checke the=20 first fuel filter and it is clear.  I decided to start at the = beginning=20 and just run the EC2's diagnostice test.  Damn, no chattering = of the=20 injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual click when I = primed=20 it).  Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark.  = All the=20 other electrics are working fine.
 
I pulled my extra EC2 = out and=20 installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three = of the=20 inectors.  The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to = fire. =20 Hmmmmm?  I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, = and it=20 didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. Looks = like I=20 have some more wire issues.  Damn, I though I had really gotten = past=20 most of those.
 
I am really confused = about the EC2=20 seeming to just shut down.  The other electrical componants are = all=20 working, but the EC2 componants are not.  Strange since I = thought each=20 items (injectors and coils) had there own power source thus should = not shut=20 down as a "team" like this.  Yes, it is the same on A and = B. =20 Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and = decided to=20 crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious = enough=20 to hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata = gal)....well, she=20 helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all=20 that bad <g>
 
I anxiously wait = commentary and=20 possible explanations from y'all.  Upon my return to the hangar = (today=20 was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be = looking at=20 my, apparntly piss poor, wiring.
 
As always my friends,=20 Thanks.
 
All the = best,
 
Chris = Barber
Houston

Warning:=20 This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous = e-mails=20 attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally = privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person = responsible=20 for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that=20 any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the = information=20 contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY = PROHIBITED. If you=20 have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify = us by=20 telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and = its=20 attachments without reading them. Thank=20 you.


------=_NextPart_000_002F_01CA39D0.E5F749D0--