X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860217 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:56:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090920155611.OEXO16492.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:56:11 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.90.215]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id j3w81c0064emyWU043w9lG; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:56:10 -0400 X-VR-Score: -30.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=IQrxY8xNwukA:10 a=z_CCHwxe47KsLnIW4koA:9 a=yNip9I9mhziotI14xLoA:7 a=g_MT_U3bmkegh5mielTGVg1kzl0A:4 a=Xs21W9NlLssA:10 a=CzG_uCeGblAA:10 a=6UI23Fxiv0zAYgxX:21 a=BNBZlTlZr-q1Wviw:21 a=cEsSX396AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=vkG5CeyomQ1otb6qghYA:9 a=XvzmslrCCdCDWtgKhkAA:7 a=_qvoct7T-EU0yBpe4gSa_YzmEyoA:4 a=a5-OGnwyBokA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4D2JjWSKxoF5hn8t:21 a=JZOoaY97GyqPZmkf:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Another mixed day out at the hangar Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 08:56:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01CA39D0.320D8C90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01CA39D0.320D8C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, With your EC2 issues, I feel your pain. Trying to track down my problem = cost me several months. My problem turned out not to be my wiring, but = an improperly seated IC in the EC2. While it does not eliminate your own = wiring as the root cause of the problem, the fact that your symptoms = changed when you installed a spare EC2 would tend to suggest that there = is something not right in the first EC2. It sounds like you have = multiple problems. Sorry we cant be more help but as others have mentioned its a complex = system and subject to variation in builder implementation which makes it = virtually impossible to troubleshoot remotely. You might consider = offering Tracy an expenses paid vacation to Houston. It might be worth = it at this point. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 10:37 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Another mixed day out at the hangar Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the = advice here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested = here and in the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no = priming and it started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down = and started back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock = position....and it started fine. Kewl. The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and = installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking = at the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing = the filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see = all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). = But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping = from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on = this. I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but = I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this = standard mount and seal. This is just a standard screw on remote oil = mount made out of AL...Made in the USA. Looks like many others I have = seen. Y'all have any ideas. =20 Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a = welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless = turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my = manifold.. As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I = had wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil = return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) = to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will = have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me = proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral = intake fuel rail. So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I = had, based on John Slades suggestion. My welder friend said it would = not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should = allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. We looked at the options and = he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old wastgate = extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. Kewl. The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I even = transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked = fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the = lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh? = It will not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear. I = decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice = test. Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even though I was able to = hear an individual click when I primed it). Put on a test plug and wire = and got no spark. All the other electrics are working fine.=20 I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector = clattering away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on = Rotor one did not seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector = that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few = seconds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues. = Damn, I though I had really gotten past most of those. I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The = other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are = not. Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there = own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, = it is the same on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped = for the night and decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk = (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for = a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too = much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that bad I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. = Upon my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow = night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. As always my friends, Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or = previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information = that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the = person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any = of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is = STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, = please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy = the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. = Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01CA39D0.320D8C90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
With your EC2 issues, I feel your pain. = Trying to=20 track down my problem cost me several months. My problem turned out not = to be my=20 wiring, but an improperly seated IC in the EC2. While it does not = eliminate your=20 own wiring as the root cause of the problem, the fact that your symptoms = changed=20 when you installed a spare EC2 would tend to suggest that there is = something not=20 right in the first EC2. It sounds like you have multiple = problems.
 
Sorry we cant be more help but as = others have=20 mentioned its a complex system and subject to variation in builder=20 implementation which makes it virtually impossible to troubleshoot = remotely. You=20 might consider offering Tracy an expenses paid vacation to Houston. It = might be=20 worth it at this point.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chris Barber
Sent: Saturday, September 19, = 2009 10:37=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Another = mixed day=20 out at the hangar

Made it = out to the hangar=20 for most the day and decided to take the advice here and modify my = start up=20 routine based on what was suggested here and in the manual.  So, = I=20 cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a = few=20 blades.  Ran for a while, shut down and started back up with = mixture in=20 about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. =20 Kewl.
 
The first bad news is that = I replaced my=20 romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter.  As I have = mentioned=20 here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter seal.  The old = one looked=20 ok, but since replacing the filters no less than three times and = knowing=20 that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND = filter=20 (K&N 2004 filter).  But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where = the filter=20 mounts.  It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose=20 connections...no doubt on this.  I know the rotary's oil pressure = is=20 higher than other engines but I would not think it would be so much = that it is=20 overwhelming this standard mount and seal.  This is just a = standard screw=20 on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the USA.  Looks like = many=20 others I have seen.  Y'all have any ideas. 
 
Second good thing is a guy = from a few=20 hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade.  He came down as = I was=20 working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day = after=20 offering to help me modify my manifold..  As was mentioned here = before,=20 the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside = down.  It=20 puts the turbo lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher than = the oil=20 inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears my = aileron=20 control link.  I will have to make a very small modification to = the lower=20 cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with = the=20 Mistral intake fuel rail.  So, I ordered a stainless copy of the = cast=20 iron one I had, based on John Slades suggestion.  My welder = friend said=20 it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around = which=20 should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly.  We looked at = the=20 options and he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the = old=20 wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. = Kewl.
 
The second bad news is = that I was=20 doing some continued tuning.  I even transferred A to B as B was = a bit=20 rough from the factory and it worked fine.  HOWEVER, later in the = day,=20 after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the = continued=20 leak) the engine stopped. Huh?  It will not restart.  I = checke the=20 first fuel filter and it is clear.  I decided to start at the = beginning=20 and just run the EC2's diagnostice test.  Damn, no chattering of = the=20 injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual click when I = primed=20 it).  Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark.  = All the=20 other electrics are working fine.
 
I pulled my extra EC2 = out and=20 installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of = the=20 inectors.  The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to fire.  = Hmmmmm?  I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, = and it=20 didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. Looks = like I have=20 some more wire issues.  Damn, I though I had really gotten past = most of=20 those.
 
I am really confused = about the EC2=20 seeming to just shut down.  The other electrical componants are = all=20 working, but the EC2 componants are not.  Strange since I thought = each=20 items (injectors and coils) had there own power source thus should not = shut=20 down as a "team" like this.  Yes, it is the same on A and = B. =20 Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided = to=20 crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious = enough to=20 hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, = she helps=20 me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all = that bad=20 <g>
 
I anxiously wait = commentary and=20 possible explanations from y'all.  Upon my return to the hangar = (today=20 was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be = looking at=20 my, apparntly piss poor, wiring.
 
As always my friends,=20 Thanks.
 
All the = best,
 
Chris = Barber
Houston

Warning:=20 This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails = attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally=20 privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person = responsible=20 for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that any=20 disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information = contained=20 in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you = have=20 received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by = telephone=20 at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its = attachments=20 without reading them. Thank you.

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