X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3790074 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:40:32 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090731043955.VGSZ1223.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:39:55 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.133.78]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id NUfu1c00D1hf1Cg04Ufuai; Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:39:54 -0400 X-VR-Score: -150.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=4Da6bvebCNAA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=rBH4bI2h5idVN56u_sMA:9 a=rDUEew2bc7xF3yINcdQA:7 a=ryg3HsLSqufyZmbNzF2qoJLlrhkA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=yylPsT0pLhpJALXi:21 a=0t_8Vi-TPvcQZL9R:21 a=JmCOEsh0PGvj-PhKbuAA:7 a=s9Ly9qGjq7DQYyMkccDRBG8eGrQA:4 a=_u_qgGS2_ZgT1jsk:21 a=uf-XYEAFm7QdOg9-:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:41:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA115E.7CFA0AC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcoRgHdjzh1s9aksTlKJEYQPAiQsXAAICIgg Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA115E.7CFA0AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There seems to be pretty good evidence that the EZpoxy tanks are OK with ethanol levels up to 10%. Perry Mick may have the longest actual use - = how many years, Perry? =20 Mike, I had the same issue with the white plastic backing in the sight = gage; and that was before I knew there was any ethanol in the fuel in CA. The holes to the tank swelled shut. Vance sent a new gauge with metal = grommets to keep the holes open. That's been working for a couple of years. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Perry Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline =20 Steve =20 I have had auto gas in my Long Ez tanks, made from EZ poxy, for over 4 years. I never had any problem with my tanks until Florida went to the = 10% ethanol gas last summer. My problem has not been the tanks but the = clear sight gauges I added several years ago. The clear outer plastic did = turn yellow over time. However, once I started using the ethanol base fuel = the white plastic backing to the clear sight gauge just melted within a = month or two. These gauges were an after market replacement for the original = Rutan design. I have had EZ poxy strips in a jar of ethanol gas for over nine months now with no sign of problems. =20 Mike Perry Long EZ Mazda 13B N981MP =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:24 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline =20 Steve; =20 What's the chance you could add some samples of EZpoxy layups? I'd be = happy to send some. =20 And I agree with Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year. You probably = don't need to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a month. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline =20 I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on = my fiberglass tanks. My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the = epoxy resins used by many other aircraft. Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune = to the effects that ethanol has on other products. Someone on the Glasair = list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests. What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. It has = implications for all of us rotary guys as well. When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I = started a test of very high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my = medium. It is 40% alcohol. =20 =20 ----- =20 I thought that I would update everyone on the Ethanol=20 "research" that I have been doing. I now have three test=20 jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in it.=20 The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with 5.7%=20 ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as=20 above) but laced with water.=20 The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; one is a sample=20 of precure that is something I made up several years ago,=20 and the other one is from the original kit. Both samples=20 have been in the jar for a week. So far, there is no=20 noticeable effect on either sample.=20 The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One sample=20 is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new=20 layup that I did a little over a week ago that was allowed=20 to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the same=20 layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200=20 degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any of=20 the three samples after one week. This test will go on for=20 a while longer just out of my own curiosity.=20 The third jar has the water in it. it also has just one=20 sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The water=20 at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. It=20 has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products=20 out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is no=20 effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water=20 (I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the sample=20 is in the water and part in the gas.) But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I=20 had with a BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told=20 me that first, California currently has a ethanol ratio of=20 5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also said that=20 the fiberglass tank problem is nearly irrelevant because,=20 as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will=20 come out of solution and unless your engine is capable of=20 burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any=20 ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were to ever=20 find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't specify=20 how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of=20 solution is very high.=20 Now, it also possible (but not probable) that one could=20 obtain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get=20 ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, the=20 likelihood of finding someone to sell that small volume is=20 nil.=20 The engineer also told me that it is possible to leach the=20 ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend this=20 procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by=20 adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it=20 down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the water=20 falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool=20 it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline that=20 will fall out over time. Any takers? So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on=20 fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my inability to see=20 any effect on the samples I have in process. Best Regards, =20 Steve Thomas _______________________________________________________ =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.36/2272 - Release Date: = 07/30/09 05:58:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA115E.7CFA0AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There seems to be pretty good = evidence that the EZpoxy tanks are OK with ethanol levels up to 10%.  Perry = Mick may have the longest actual use – how many years, = Perry?

 

Mike, I had the = same issue with = the white plastic backing in the sight gage; and that was before I knew there was = any ethanol in the fuel in CA.  The holes to the tank swelled = shut.  Vance sent a new gauge with metal grommets to keep the holes open.  = That’s been working for a couple of years.

 

Al G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Perry
Sent: Thursday, July 30, = 2009 5:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline

 

Steve

 

I have had auto gas in my = Long Ez tanks, made from EZ poxy, for over 4 years.  I never had any = problem with my tanks until Florida went to the 10% ethanol gas last summer.  My problem has not been the tanks but the clear sight gauges I added = several years ago.  The clear outer plastic did turn yellow over time. However, = once I started using the ethanol base fuel the white plastic backing to the = clear sight gauge just melted within a month or two.  These gauges were = an after market replacement for the original Rutan design.  I have had EZ = poxy strips in a jar of ethanol gas for over nine months now with no sign of problems.

 

Mike = Perry

Long EZ Mazda = 13B

N981MP

 

----- Original Message ----- =

=

From: Al = Gietzen

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:24 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline

 

Steve;

 

What’s the chance you could add some samples of EZpoxy layups?  I’d = be happy to send some.

 

And I agree with Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year.  You probably don’t need to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a = month.

 

Al = G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas
Sent: Thursday, July 30, = 2009 11:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline

 

I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my fiberglass tanks.  My airplane is made = from vinyl-ester resin, not the epoxy resins used by many other aircraft.  Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune to the effects that ethanol has = on other products.  Someone on the Glasair list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests.  What follows is the = analysis I posted on the Glasair list.  It has implications for all of us = rotary guys as well.  When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very = high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium.  It is = 40% alcohol.  

 

-----

 

I thought that I would update everyone on the = Ethanol 
"research" that I have been = doing. I now have three test 
jars set up. One jar has the infamous = Jose Cuervo in it. 
The second jar has pure 91 octane = gasoline with 5.7% 
ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane = gasohol (same as 
above) but laced with = water. 

The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in = it; one is a sample 
of precure that is something I made up = several years ago, 
and the other one is from the original = kit. Both samples 
have been in the jar for a week. So far, = there is no 
noticeable effect on either = sample. 

The gasoline-only jar has three samples = in it. One sample 
is from the original factory lay-up. One = is a brand new 
layup that I did a little over a week ago = that was allowed 
to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is = from the same 
layup just completed, but was cured in an = oven at 200 
degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable = effect on any of 
the three samples after one week. This = test will go on for 
a while longer just out of my own = curiosity. 

The third jar has the water in it. it = also has just one 
sample in it, one of the original factory = layups. The water 
at the bottom of the jar has turned a = light brown color. It 
has clearly leached the alcohol and some = other products 
out of the gas as the water level has = grown. There is no 
effect on the sample layup, either in the = gas or the water 
(I have it standing up in the jar so that = part of the sample 
is in the water and part in the = gas.)

But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I 
had with a BP/Arco technical products = engineer. He told 
me that first, California currently has a = ethanol ratio of 
5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He = also said that 
the fiberglass tank problem is nearly = irrelevant because, 
as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, = the ethanol will 
come out of solution and unless your = engine is capable of 
burning pure ethanol, you should avoid = using any 
ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If = you were to ever 
find yourself at very cold temperatures = (he didn't specify 
how cold), the likelihood of ethanol = coming out of 
solution is very high. 

Now, it also possible (but not probable) = that one could 
obtain an exemption from the Air = Resources Board to get 
ethanol-free gas for experimental = purposes, the 
likelihood of finding someone to sell = that small volume is 
nil. 

The engineer also told me that it is = possible to leach the 
ethanol out of the fuel. I do not = recommend this 
procedure (legal disclaimer). one can = leach the ethanol by 
adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating = it, then cooling it 
down as far as practicable to ensure that = all of the water 
falls out. Then, remove the water layer. = If you don't cool 
it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the = gasoline that 
will fall out over time. Any = takers?

So, at least for now, it seems that the = effect of ethanol on 
fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my = inability to see 
any effect on the samples I have in = process.


Best Regards,

 

Steve Thomas






_______________________________________________________

=

 

 



=  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.36/2272 - Release Date: = 07/30/09 05:58:00

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA115E.7CFA0AC0--