X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3786864 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:44:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=MKPerry99@cfl.rr.com Received: from mikewp2fm7y988 ([72.188.80.223]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20090731014352404.HSLZ11508@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: <22359574EA194A6CACB14B0A40373F26@mikewp2fm7y988> From: "Mike Perry" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:43:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0EBA_01CA115E.D5500670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 Disposition-Notification-To: "Mike Perry" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0EBA_01CA115E.D5500670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve I have had auto gas in my Long Ez tanks, made from EZ poxy, for over 4 = years. I never had any problem with my tanks until Florida went to the = 10% ethanol gas last summer. My problem has not been the tanks but the = clear sight gauges I added several years ago. The clear outer plastic = did turn yellow over time. However, once I started using the ethanol = base fuel the white plastic backing to the clear sight gauge just melted = within a month or two. These gauges were an after market replacement = for the original Rutan design. I have had EZ poxy strips in a jar of = ethanol gas for over nine months now with no sign of problems. Mike Perry Long EZ Mazda 13B N981MP ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:24 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Steve; What's the chance you could add some samples of EZpoxy layups? I'd be = happy to send some. And I agree with Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year. You probably = don't need to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a month. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on = my fiberglass tanks. My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not = the epoxy resins used by many other aircraft. Vinyl-ester is touted to = be immune to the effects that ethanol has on other products. Someone on = the Glasair list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run = some tests. What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. = It has implications for all of us rotary guys as well. When I speak of = Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very high concentrations of ethanol = using Jose Cuervo as my medium. It is 40% alcohol. =20 ----- I thought that I would update everyone on the Ethanol=20 "research" that I have been doing. I now have three test=20 jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in it.=20 The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with 5.7%=20 ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as=20 above) but laced with water.=20 The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; one is a sample=20 of precure that is something I made up several years ago,=20 and the other one is from the original kit. Both samples=20 have been in the jar for a week. So far, there is no=20 noticeable effect on either sample.=20 The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One sample=20 is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new=20 layup that I did a little over a week ago that was allowed=20 to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the same=20 layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200=20 degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any of=20 the three samples after one week. This test will go on for=20 a while longer just out of my own curiosity.=20 The third jar has the water in it. it also has just one=20 sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The water=20 at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. It=20 has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products=20 out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is no=20 effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water=20 (I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the sample=20 is in the water and part in the gas.) But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I=20 had with a BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told=20 me that first, California currently has a ethanol ratio of=20 5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also said that=20 the fiberglass tank problem is nearly irrelevant because,=20 as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will=20 come out of solution and unless your engine is capable of=20 burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any=20 ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were to ever=20 find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't specify=20 how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of=20 solution is very high.=20 Now, it also possible (but not probable) that one could=20 obtain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get=20 ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, the=20 likelihood of finding someone to sell that small volume is=20 nil.=20 The engineer also told me that it is possible to leach the=20 ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend this=20 procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by=20 adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it=20 down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the water=20 falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool=20 it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline that=20 will fall out over time. Any takers? So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on=20 fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my inability to see=20 any effect on the samples I have in process. Best Regards, Steve Thomas _______________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.36/2272 - Release Date: = 07/30/09 05:58:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0EBA_01CA115E.D5500670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve
 
I have had auto gas in my Long Ez = tanks, made from=20 EZ poxy, for over 4 years.  I never had any problem with my tanks = until=20 Florida went to the 10% ethanol gas = last=20 summer.  My problem has not been the tanks but the clear sight = gauges I=20 added several years ago.  The clear outer plastic did turn yellow = over=20 time. However, once I started using the ethanol base fuel the white = plastic=20 backing to the clear sight gauge just melted within a month or = two.  These=20 gauges were an after market replacement for the original Rutan = design.  I=20 have had EZ poxy strips in a jar of ethanol gas for over nine months now = with no=20 sign of problems.
 
Mike Perry
Long EZ Mazda 13B
N981MP
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 = 9:24=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using=20 Ethanol-laced Gasoline

Steve;

 

What=92s = the chance=20 you could add some samples of = EZpoxy=20 layups?  I=92d be happy to send some.

 

And I = agree with=20 Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year.  You probably don=92t need = to check=20 them more than every couple of weeks, or a month.

 

Al=20 G

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve = Thomas
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 = 11:57=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline

 

I am in the = process of=20 testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my fiberglass tanks. =  My=20 airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the epoxy resins used by = many=20 other aircraft.  Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune to the = effects that=20 ethanol has on other products.  Someone on the Glasair list had = some=20 problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests.  What = follows is=20 the analysis I posted on the Glasair list.  It has implications = for all=20 of us rotary guys as well.  When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I = started a test=20 of very high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium. =  It is 40% alcohol.  

 

-----

 

I thought that I would = update=20 everyone on the Ethanol 
"research" that=20 I have been doing. I now have three test 
jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose = Cuervo in=20 it. 
The second jar has = pure 91=20 octane gasoline with 5.7% 
ehtanol=20 and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as 
above) but laced with = water. 

The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; = one is a=20 sample 
of precure that = is=20 something I made up several years ago, 
and the other one is from the original kit. = Both=20 samples 
have been in = the jar for=20 a week. So far, there is no 
noticeable effect on either=20 sample. 

The = gasoline-only jar=20 has three samples in it. One sample 
is from the original factory lay-up. One is a = brand=20 new 
layup that I did a = little=20 over a week ago that was allowed 
to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is = from the=20 same 
layup just = completed, but=20 was cured in an oven at 200 
degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable = effect on any=20 of 
the three samples = after one=20 week. This test will go on for 
a=20 while longer just out of my own curiosity. 

The third jar has the water in it. it also = has just=20 one 
sample in it, one = of the=20 original factory layups. The water 
at the bottom of the jar has turned a light = brown=20 color. It 
has clearly = leached the=20 alcohol and some other products 
out of the gas as the water level has grown. = There is=20 no 
effect on the sample = layup,=20 either in the gas or the water 
(I=20 have it standing up in the jar so that part of the=20 sample 
is in the water = and part=20 in the gas.)

But the = final coup de=20 grace comes from a conversation I 
had with a BP/Arco technical products = engineer. He=20 told 
me that first, = California=20 currently has a ethanol ratio of 
5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He = also said=20 that 
the fiberglass = tank problem=20 is nearly irrelevant because, 
as=20 ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol = will 
come out of solution and unless your engine = is capable=20 of 
burning pure = ethanol, you=20 should avoid using any 
ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you = were to=20 ever 
find yourself at = very cold=20 temperatures (he didn't specify 
how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming = out=20 of 
solution is very=20 high. 

Now, it also = possible=20 (but not probable) that one could 
obtain an exemption from the Air Resources = Board to=20 get 
ethanol-free gas = for=20 experimental purposes, the 
likelihood of finding someone to sell that = small volume=20 is 
nil. 

The engineer also told me that it is possible = to leach=20 the 
ethanol out of the = fuel. I do=20 not recommend this 
procedure=20 (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by 
adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, = then=20 cooling it 
down as far = as=20 practicable to ensure that all of the water 
falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If = you don't=20 cool 
it down, = micro-bubbles will=20 remain in the gasoline that 
will=20 fall out over time. Any takers?

So,=20 at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol = on 
fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my = inability to=20 see 
any effect on the = samples I=20 have in process.


Best=20 Regards,

 

Steve=20 Thomas





_______________________________________________________

 

 




=

 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = -=20 www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.36/2272 - = Release=20 Date: 07/30/09 05:58:00
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