X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3786767 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:33:30 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@bellairepolice.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:31:35 -0500 From: "Chris Barber" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" , "Rotary motors in aircraft" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Thread-Index: AcoRdSMGtnt5W4yCQbaiJMU/dF0dQQAAR+Tb References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA1176.7B49790A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1176.7B49790A Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, =20 Thanks for the reminder to check my EZPoxy that I started testing last ye= ar when my strakes Jeffco failed. I started it in Aug of 08. Last check= =2E..and to refill container was about 2 months ago and the samples were = still solid. =20 Chris =20 Cpl. Christopher Barber, JD Badge 330 Bellaire Police Department 5110 Jessamine Bellaire, Texas 77401 =20 713-668-0487 713-662-8289 fax =20 CBarber@BellairePolice.com ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Al Gietzen Sent: Thu 7/30/2009 8:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Steve; =20 What's the chance you could add some samples of EZpoxy layups? I'd be ha= ppy to send some. =20 And I agree with Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year. You probably don't= need to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a month. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline =20 I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my= fiberglass tanks. My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the e= poxy resins used by many other aircraft. Vinyl-ester is touted to be imm= une to the effects that ethanol has on other products. Someone on the Gl= asair list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests= =2E What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. It has i= mplications for all of us rotary guys as well. When I speak of Jose Cuer= vo, I started a test of very high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cu= ervo as my medium. It is 40% alcohol. =20 =20 ----- =20 I thought that I would update everyone on the Ethanol=20 "research" that I have been doing. I now have three test=20 jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in it.=20 The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with 5.7%=20 ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as=20 above) but laced with water.=20 The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; one is a sample=20 of precure that is something I made up several years ago,=20 and the other one is from the original kit. Both samples=20 have been in the jar for a week. So far, there is no=20 noticeable effect on either sample.=20 The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One sample=20 is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new=20 layup that I did a little over a week ago that was allowed=20 to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the same=20 layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200=20 degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any of=20 the three samples after one week. This test will go on for=20 a while longer just out of my own curiosity.=20 The third jar has the water in it. it also has just one=20 sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The water=20 at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. It=20 has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products=20 out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is no=20 effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water=20 (I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the sample=20 is in the water and part in the gas.) But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I=20 had with a BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told=20 me that first, California currently has a ethanol ratio of=20 5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also said that=20 the fiberglass tank problem is nearly irrelevant because,=20 as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will=20 come out of solution and unless your engine is capable of=20 burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any=20 ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were to ever=20 find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't specify=20 how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of=20 solution is very high.=20 Now, it also possible (but not probable) that one could=20 obtain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get=20 ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, the=20 likelihood of finding someone to sell that small volume is=20 nil.=20 The engineer also told me that it is possible to leach the=20 ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend this=20 procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by=20 adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it=20 down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the water=20 falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool=20 it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline that=20 will fall out over time. Any takers? So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on=20 fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my inability to see=20 any effect on the samples I have in process. Best Regards, =20 Steve Thomas _______________________________________________________ =20 =20 =20 Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e= -mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legal= ly privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person respon= sible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notifie= d that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the informa= tion contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED= =2E If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately n= otify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmissi= on and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1176.7B49790A Content-Type: text/html;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
Al,
=0A
 
=0A
Th= anks for the reminder to check my EZPoxy that I started testing last year= when my strakes Jeffco failed.  I started it in Aug of 08.  La= st check...and to refill container was about 2 months ago and the samples= were still solid.
=0A
 
=0A
Chris<= /FONT>
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
= Cpl. Christopher Barber, JD=0A
Badge 330
=0A
Bellaire Police Department
=0A
5110 Jessamine
=0A
Bellaire, Texas 7= 7401
=0A
 
=0A
<= FONT face=3DSystem>713-668-0487
=0A
7= 13-662-8289 fax
=0A
 =0A
CBarber@BellairePolice.com
=0A

=0A
=0AFrom: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Al Gietzen
Se= nt: Thu 7/30/2009 8:24 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline
=0A
=0A
=0A

Steve;

=0A

 

=0A

What’s the cha= nce you could add some samples of EZpoxy layup= s?  I’d be happy to send some.

=0A

 

=0A=

And I agree wit= h Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year.  You probably don’t nee= d to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a month.

=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">=  

=0A

Al G

=0A

 

=0A

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf= Of Steve Thomas
Sent:= Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced G= asoline

=0A

 

=0A

I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasolin= e on my fiberglass tanks.  My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resi= n, not the epoxy resins used by many other aircraft.  Vinyl-ester is= touted to be immune to the effects that ethanol has on other products. &= nbsp;Someone on the Glasair list had some problems with ethanol, so I dec= ided to run some tests.  What follows is the analysis I posted on th= e Glasair list.  It has implications for all of us rotary guys as we= ll.  When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very high conc= entrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium.  It is 40% alc= ohol.  

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

-----

=0A
=0A=

 

=
=0A
=0A

I thought that I would update everyon= e on the Ethanol 
"research"= that I have been doing. I now have three test 
jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in= it. 
The second jar has pu= re 91 octane gasoline with 5.7% 
ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as 
above) but laced with water. 

The Jose Cuervo jar has two s= amples in it; one is a sample 
of precure that is something I made up several years ago, 
and the other one is from the origina= l kit. Both samples 
have b= een in the jar for a week. So far, there is no 
noticeable effect on either sample. 
=
The gasoline-only jar has three sample= s in it. One sample 
is fro= m the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new 
layup that I did a little over a week ago that wa= s allowed 
to cure for 48 h= ours. The third sample is from the same 
layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200 =
degrees for 3 hours. Again, no = noticeable effect on any of 
the three samples after one week. This test will go on for =
a while longer just out of my own curi= osity. 

The third jar h= as the water in it. it also has just one 
sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The wate= r 
at the bottom of the jar= has turned a light brown color. It 
has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products 
out of the gas as the water level= has grown. There is no 
ef= fect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water 
= (I have it standing up in the jar so that = part of the sample 
is in t= he water and part in the gas.)

But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I had with a BP/Arco technical products en= gineer. He told 
me that fi= rst, California currently has a ethanol ratio of 
5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also sai= d that 
the fiberglass tank= problem is nearly irrelevant because, 
as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will = ;
come out of solution and unles= s your engine is capable of 
burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any 
ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were = to ever 
find yourself at v= ery cold temperatures (he didn't specify 
how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of 
solution is very high. 

Now, it also possible (but not p= robable) that one could 
ob= tain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get 
ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, t= he 
likelihood of finding s= omeone to sell that small volume is 
nil. 

The eng= ineer also told me that it is possible to leach the 
ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend thi= s 
procedure (legal disclai= mer). one can leach the ethanol by 
adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it&nb= sp;
down as far as practicable t= o ensure that all of the water 
falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool 
it down, micro-bubbles will remain = in the gasoline that 
will = fall out over time. Any takers?

So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on 
fiberglass is somewhat moot, despi= te my inability to see 
any= effect on the samples I have in process.

=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A


Best Regards,

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Steve Thom= as

=0A


=

=0A
=0A

_______________________________________________________

=0A
=0A

 

=0A=0A

 

=0A




<= /SPAN>=0A

 


Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previo= us e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is l= egally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person re= sponsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby not= ified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the inf= ormation contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIB= ITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately= notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmis= sion and its attachments without reading them. Thank you.

------_=_NextPart_001_01CA1176.7B49790A--