X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3786571 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:57:42 -0400 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=glasair2@me.com Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090730195700.VVLZ28095.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:57:00 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.201] ([70.177.24.126]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id NKx01c0092jEC4N03Kx0Jm; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:57:01 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=NnrOaBV-ZU8fcX3PtKcA:9 a=uoetbMZyeGYwixrKaa0A:7 a=7hIrARSvLM6jO3tcwdmBf9LAkcsA:4 a=8LlltTa4Rr3yVdYe0N8A:9 a=PFtihatQRdfqxD2-viUA:7 a=dhn2uVJ7wXs9D7RSTEiSFe43ymMA:4 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-Id: <2D618425-6C5E-43DD-9990-394FDBED705C@me.com> From: Steve Thomas To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-10-93680829 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:57:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) --Apple-Mail-10-93680829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my fiberglass tanks. My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the epoxy resins used by many other aircraft. Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune to the effects that ethanol has on other products. Someone on the Glasair list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests. What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. It has implications for all of us rotary guys as well. When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium. It is 40% alcohol. ----- I thought that I would update everyone on the Ethanol "research" that I have been doing. I now have three test jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in it. The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with 5.7% ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as above) but laced with water. The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; one is a sample of precure that is something I made up several years ago, and the other one is from the original kit. Both samples have been in the jar for a week. So far, there is no noticeable effect on either sample. The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One sample is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new layup that I did a little over a week ago that was allowed to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the same layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200 degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any of the three samples after one week. This test will go on for a while longer just out of my own curiosity. The third jar has the water in it. it also has just one sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The water at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. It has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is no effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water (I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the sample is in the water and part in the gas.) But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I had with a BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told me that first, California currently has a ethanol ratio of 5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also said that the fiberglass tank problem is nearly irrelevant because, as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will come out of solution and unless your engine is capable of burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were to ever find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't specify how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of solution is very high. Now, it also possible (but not probable) that one could obtain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, the likelihood of finding someone to sell that small volume is nil. The engineer also told me that it is possible to leach the ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend this procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the water falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline that will fall out over time. Any takers? So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my inability to see any effect on the samples I have in process. Best Regards, Steve Thomas _______________________________________________________ --Apple-Mail-10-93680829 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in the process of testing = the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my fiberglass tanks.  My = airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the epoxy resins used by = many other aircraft.  Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune to the = effects that ethanol has on other products.  Someone on the Glasair = list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests. =  What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. =  It has implications for all of us rotary guys as well.  When = I speak of Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very high concentrations of = ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium.  It is 40% alcohol. =  

-----

I thought that I would update everyone on the = Ethanol 
"research" that I have been doing. I now have three = test 
jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in = it. 
The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with = 5.7% 
ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same = as 
above) but laced with water. 

The Jose Cuervo = jar has two samples in it; one is a sample 
of precure that is = something I made up several years ago, 
and the other one is = from the original kit. Both samples 
have been in the jar for a = week. So far, there is no 
noticeable effect on either = sample. 

The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One = sample 
is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand = new 
layup that I did a little over a week ago that was = allowed 
to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the = same 
layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at = 200 
degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any = of 
the three samples after one week. This test will go on = for 
a while longer just out of my own = curiosity. 

The third jar has the water in it. it also has = just one 
sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The = water 
at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. = It 
has clearly leached the alcohol and some other = products 
out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is = no 
effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the = water 
(I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the = sample 
is in the water and part in the gas.)

But the = final coup de grace comes from a conversation I 
had with a = BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told 
me that first, = California currently has a ethanol ratio of 
5.7% but will soon = be changing to 10%. He also said that 
the fiberglass tank = problem is nearly irrelevant because, 
as ethanol laced gasoline = gets colder, the ethanol will 
come out of solution and unless = your engine is capable of 
burning pure ethanol, you should = avoid using any 
ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were = to ever 
find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't = specify 
how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out = of 
solution is very high. 

Now, it also possible = (but not probable) that one could 
obtain an exemption from the = Air Resources Board to get 
ethanol-free gas for experimental = purposes, the 
likelihood of finding someone to sell that small = volume is 
nil. 

The engineer also told me that it = is possible to leach the 
ethanol out of the fuel. I do not = recommend this 
procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the = ethanol by 
adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then = cooling it 
down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the = water 
falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't = cool 
it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline = that 
will fall out over time. Any takers?

So, at least = for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on 
fiberglass is = somewhat moot, despite my inability to see 
any effect on the = samples I have in process.

Best Regards,

Steve = Thomas



______________________________________= _________________




=

= --Apple-Mail-10-93680829--