X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3746036 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:27:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090706022630.LXPG20976.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:26:30 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.87.229]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id CSSV1c0034wtUdQ04SSWJr; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:26:31 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=_ATFqlNxbAEA:10 a=HO2ynIb2AAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=oWS_kL7QGbjPnvyrkvcA:9 a=k2PhIhyd1IDeFmiLYUoA:7 a=NhDGOGtK0lCXEW2h1Lk7e-yuDJMA:4 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=2xDkUO2WBuw_TXworfsA:9 a=tSxxpmElIWTo8YrwWYYA:7 a=wYlijCyE60xXJ4ehhr_62pQDXuoA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BA0715E11D44D8F97E6AE8E5EA3336B@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Modify Alternator for External Regulator Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:26:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C9FDA6.7F2DDB80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C9FDA6.7F2DDB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This assumes that you believe Bob Nuckolls to be the know all end all = expert that he himself believes he is. I discovered many years ago that = its useless to try to discuss anything with Bob because his way is the = only right way. As a result I dont necessarily discount everything he = says, but it is taken with a grain of salt. Who else do we know like that? Just my opinion. BTW, I should add that I'm not using the stock Mazda alternator. I have = a Metro/Sprint alternator that I purchased at the local alternator = overhaul shop. The guy showed me two alternators that appeared almost = identical when I told him what I was looking for and the application. = The only obvious difference was the pulley. He said one was for the = Metro/Sprint, the other was for a Diamond Katana. Internally he said = they were identical. And I can kill the field current and shutdown the = alternator via the panel mounted switch on my Sprint alternator. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Modify Alternator for External Regulator Group, I found the following discussion on the Bob Nuckolls = "AeroConnection" site that would seem to add credence to my opinion about the modification of internal = regulated alternators to external regulation.............FWIW Alternator Internal Regulator > I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the voltage = regulator to go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have shorted out = the alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the regulator to fail. I did mount my relay = using one of the existing three bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not = connected to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay instead of the big = contactor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. A Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator has some = risk associated with it. There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may precipitate = uncontrollable voltage run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built into these = products are not terribly useful . . . the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring alternator = performance should be a low voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage below 13.0 = volts. Ignore the built in lamp circuit. I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov protection. If = I interpret your words correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back of the = alternator. This is not recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher vibration levels = from the engine than it would experience if mounted on the firewall. I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published work-arounds = for letting you "get by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I DON'T RECOMMEND = THEM. When we design new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my compatriots to reduce if = not eliminate relays in the system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy current -AND- get = vibrated are some of the poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is why our latest = and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution system. I'd = really like to see the automotive alternators get modified to use external regulation. Bob . = . . ------ Alternator >> Bob , any thought on why the alternator would not shut down even = after the field was cut. It went to 28 volts. I have an order with you for the Over voltage = protection that's for sure. Richard A Sure . . . it's because MANY if not ALL automotive alternators have = failure modes that can BYPASS the effects of any control circuits for a normally = operating alternator. This is why we've always suggested that really nice automotive products be = modified for external regulation and ov protection so that we can be sure of performance in a failed = regulator situation. You'll also need an alternator disconnect contactor to go with your ov module = . . . the ov module is capable of shutting down an externally regulated alternator with no = assistance. An INTERNALLY regulated alternator needs to be physically disconnected = from the bus in an OV condition. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf Bob . . . ----- -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternator for External Regulator=20 Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:28 +0000=20 Group, I appreciate all the different opinions and perspectives about = this subject............Each of us as experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable risk = level...........I currently have a Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 powered = 1988 RX7 with about 60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression = and I feel Rotarys are wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke Delta)...............The = internal regulator failed but=20 failed open instead of an internal short which would have allowed = runaway voltage.........I do realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my personal = risk level still wanted the ability to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my = "Delta"...........I do not currently have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be installing = one to test this as there has=20 been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields might = prevent the alternator from shuting down............Will report my findings........... I realize that abilities among experimental aircraft builders = vary but in my opinion if you can build a safe and flyable aircraft with a Mazda Rotary engine = then the skills needed to modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This is not = rocket science , all you are doing is removing an internal regulator (I think the entire = circuitry should be removed as=20 I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the field = windings connected to a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of the = internal regulator alternators were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C9FDA6.7F2DDB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
This assumes that you believe Bob = Nuckolls to be=20 the know all end all expert that he himself believes he is. I = discovered=20 many years ago that its useless to try to discuss anything with Bob = because his=20 way is the only right way. As a result I dont necessarily discount = everything he=20 says, but it is taken with a grain of salt.
 
Who else do we know like = that?
 
Just my opinion.
 
BTW, I should add that I'm not using = the stock=20 Mazda alternator. I have a Metro/Sprint alternator that I purchased at = the local=20 alternator overhaul shop. The guy showed me two alternators that = appeared almost=20 identical when I told him what I was looking for and the application. = The only=20 obvious difference was the pulley. He said one was for the Metro/Sprint, = the=20 other was for a Diamond Katana. Internally he said they were identical. = And I=20 can kill the field current and shutdown the alternator via the panel = mounted=20 switch on my Sprint alternator.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 = 6:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Modify = Alternator=20 for External Regulator

Group,
    I found the following discussion on the Bob = Nuckolls=20 "AeroConnection" site that would
seem to add credence to my opinion about the modification of = internal=20 regulated alternators
to external regulation.............FWIW
 

Alternator Internal Regulator

> I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause = the voltage=20 regulator to go out on the ND

internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may = have=20 shorted out the alternator light circuit

which in turn can cause the regulator to fail. I did = mount my=20 relay using one of the existing three

bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt = but they=20 are not connected to anything I am

aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay = instead of the=20 big contactor. Any thoughts

would be most welcome.

A Use of an automotive alternator with built in = regulator has=20 some risk associated with it.

There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may = precipitate uncontrollable voltage

run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built = into these=20 products are not terribly useful . . .

the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring = alternator=20 performance should be a low

voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage = below 13.0=20 volts. Ignore the built in lamp

circuit.

I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov = protection. If I interpret your words

correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back = of the=20 alternator. This is not

recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher = vibration=20 levels from the engine than it

would experience if mounted on the firewall.

I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have = published=20 work-arounds for letting you "get

by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I = DON'T=20 RECOMMEND THEM. When we design

new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my = compatriots to=20 reduce if not eliminate relays in the

system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy = current -AND-=20 get vibrated are some of the

poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is = why our=20 latest and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS

guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution = system.=20 I'd really like to see the

automotive alternators get modified to use external = regulation.=20 Bob . . .

------

Alternator

>> Bob , any thought on why the alternator would = not shut=20 down even after the field was cut. It

went to 28 volts. I have an order with you for the = Over voltage=20 protection that's for sure. Richard

A Sure . . . it's because MANY if not ALL automotive = alternators=20 have failure modes that

can BYPASS the effects of any control circuits for a = normally=20 operating alternator. This is why

we've always suggested that really nice automotive = products be=20 modified for external regulation

and ov protection so that we can be sure of = performance in a=20 failed regulator situation. You'll

also need an alternator disconnect contactor to go = with your ov=20 module . . . the ov module is

capable of shutting down an externally regulated = alternator with=20 no assistance. An

INTERNALLY regulated alternator needs to be physically = disconnected from the bus in an OV

condition. See: = http://aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf Bob=20 . . .

-----

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20
--------------=20 Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Kelly Troyer"=20 <keltro@att.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Modify = Alternator for=20 External Regulator
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:28 +0000
 
Group,
 
    I appreciate all the different opinions and=20 perspectives about this subject............Each of us as
experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable = risk=20 level...........I currently have a
Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 = powered 1988=20 RX7 with about
60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression = <apex=20 seal> and I feel Rotarys are
wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke = Delta)...............The=20 internal regulator failed but
failed open instead of an internal short which would have = allowed=20 runaway voltage.........I do
realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my = personal=20 risk level still wanted the ability
to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my=20 "Delta"...........I do not currently
have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be = installing one=20 to test this as there has
been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields = might=20 prevent the alternator from
shuting down............Will report my = findings...........
 
      I realize that abilities among=20 experimental aircraft builders vary but in my opinion if you
can build a safe and flyable aircraft with = a Mazda Rotary=20 engine then the skills needed to
modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This = is not=20 rocket science , all you
are doing is removing an internal regulator (I think the = entire=20 circuitry should be removed as
I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the = field=20 windings connected to
a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of = the=20 internal regulator alternators
were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & = FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20
 
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