X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3578615 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:05:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090413010515.FWMW6222.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:05:15 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Events was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:05:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C9BBB2.64B86A30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acm7srygFw52pR7PTzeN3ayLGQH9ogAH6sDg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090413010515.FWMW6222.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C9BBB2.64B86A30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C9BBB2.64B86A30" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C9BBB2.64B86A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, Mark, I had flow 10 hours with the woodruff key missing and = had just completed a 2 =BD hr flight from NC to FL over the okefenokee = swamp! Fortunately, the unintended WOT startup the next cool morning broke the torque of the clamping nut loose and fortunately I heeded the unusual = oil pressure signals. Here is a write up I provided for a best practices list. =20 Problem: It is relatively easy to place the 13B oil-pump chain drive sprocket on the oil pump shaft without having the woodruff key correctly positioned. Sliding the sprocket on the shaft can push the key out of = its slot in the shaft and trap it against the oil pump aluminum housing. The torque (30 ft/lbs) of the oil shaft nut can provide sufficient clamping force on the drive sprocket, pressing it against the oil pump shaft shoulder, that it will drive the oil pump - at least for a while. I flew approx. 10 hours with the oil pump in this condition - until a fortunate event caused the sprocket drive to break lose from the clamping force of = the nut with resulting drop in oil pressure to 20 psi. Fortunately this = happened on the ground and investigation led to discovery of the problem.=20 =20 Recommendation: Use some method to ensure the key is properly position before placing washer/nut on the shaft. Here are two suggestions:=20 1.) Visually ensure that the key is in the shaft by looking down the = shaft keyway. 2.) Use a paper clip with one leg bent 90 degrees, insert the end of the bent leg in the woodruff keyway and ensure that it does not extend all = the way. In other words, the leg of the clip should encounter the key before = the leg is fully inserted into the keyway.=20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Events was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Engines =20 Ed,=20 Correct me if I'm wrong, but hadn't you flown at least once with the = missing woodruff key? If so, I think luck was on your side that it didn't fail = in flight. Besides, I've added two other incidents which happened on the ground, so I will keep this one just to remind others of the importance = of checking the woodruff key during assembly.=20 Mark=20 On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Oh, Yes, that among many others, but was not airborne =96 always figured anything that wanted to go wrong on the ground was OK by me {:>). After = 450 hours of flying behind this rotary, I=92ve developed a bit of feel when = things are just not right. Sort of the =93..you develop good judgment from bad experiences, you encountered bad experiences due to bad judgment =85=94 = type thing. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 2:21 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Events was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Engines =20 Ed,=20 Aren't you forgetting the incident involving the missing woodruff key in = the oil pump? As I recall, another aborted takeoff (good decision). =20 Mark On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Ok, Mark =20 I think I see one (or more) of my =93events=94 in your list. However, = none actually required a forced landing =96 in other words, I could have = remained airborne should I have choose to do so. In fact, I did - until a = suitable and safe landing site was reached. Well, Ok, the lost rotor really did = beg for a landing as soon as safely feasible {:>) =20 Event 1: I lost the apex seal in my worn high compression rotors at 160 hours on = the block from a complete rebuild of a Japanese imported 1991 turbo core. =20 Probably most important decision during the incident was: 1. Immediately turn for closest good air field when the engine started to act abnormal 2. Recognizing that the EGT on rotor 1 going to minimum indicated lack of useful combustion in that rotor 3. Realizing that power (or lack thereof) was going to be an issue, I reached over and turned up the manual fuel mixture to maximum rich =96 = that move the fuel flow from 7 gph up to over 14 gph. Needless to say a lot = of expensive fuel was not providing much power on the bad rotor. But, I managed to maintain 6400 MSL fully loaded with fuel and camping gear. 4. After landing, I found it took much more throttle to taxi up hill on one rotor. =20 =20 After loosing the rotor on way to 2005 Sun & Fun I landed at what turned = out to be a derelict airport (FB0) had just left and radios were being = stolen from aircraft on the field. A county investigator informed me after checking me out because I was =93disassembling=94 my aircraft to get the = engine off to take home to repair. =20 Event 2: =20 Because (in part) of my concern for my aircraft on said airfield, I = hasten (too hastily it turns out) rebuild my engine with new rotors. I had the engine buttoned up and turned it over =96 it was indeed a bit harder to = turn over than I recalled from previous rebuilds =96 but there was no = scraping sound and compression was good, so convinced myself just a damn good = tight rebuild! So reinstalled the engine. Even after it was running, I noted that for the first hour - anytime I reduced the rpm below 2000 rpm the engine would quite. (Did I fail to mention that I had plenty of warning from the engine as well as from Bruce Turentine and Tracy Crook). But, after the engine had =93loosened up=94 a bit, it ran fine. =20 One the way to Charlie England=92s Mississippi Rotary fly in later that spring, I noticed my coolant pressure was very slowly increasing =96 = like about 1 psi each hour of flight. It started out at around 10-12 and by = the time I got to Charlie=92s place it was up to 18 psi. Well, I pretty = much knew that I had a leak between coolant galleys and combustion chamber. Flew = on to Louisiana to visit Kin folks, upon departing one week later, I got up = to just about lift-off speed but the engine was missing a bit. Nothing serious, power was good, but still=85.. I aborted the take off. Had = brake line failure, hydraulic fluid fire and went off the runway into a ditch (fortunately slow speed and shallow ditch). Thanks to Laura and Tracy = Crook was able to rebuild the engine (without haste this time) during which = time I found that one of the small triangular end pieces of apex seals was = missing from the front rotor, instead there were two silver dollar size blue = spots on the iron side housings (that was also the vicinity where the TES O = rings had failed (due to the clear localized high temps). Apparently the apex part fell into one of the milled lightening holes in the side of the = rotor =96 if it had not fallen into the hole which provided just enough clearance = for the engine to rotate =96 I am certain I would not have been able to = rotate the assembly by hand or starter. =20 =20 So in this case, no forced landing =96 never got airborne. Then there = was the 12 mile engine-out glide =96 but that had nothing to do with the engine = and everything to do with the pilot, so I won=92t go there {:>) =20 So here is some meat for your project {:>) =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 7:45 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines =20 Mike,=20 Has anyone ever tried to document the rotary incidents resulting in a = forced landing? Here's what I recall from memory, so it likely is missing a few; =20 3 forced landings due to ruptured oil coolers=20 1 forced landing due to apex seal coming out of its slot (rotor out = of spec) 1 forced landing due to improper assembly of engine (seal wedged = between rotor & side housing) 1 forced landing on highway due to catastrophic overheating of = engine 2 forced landings (one fatal) due to probable fuel system design = flaw =20 1 forced landing on highway due to ingestion of FOD. =20 There were a few others, such as turbo failures which allowed for = continued operation at reduced power, so we may or may not wish to include those = here. While a number of these incidents date back quite a few years, and we = have made excellent progress, it says to me that we still have room for improvement in the peripheral department. The good news is that out of = all of the incidents listed above, none of them were caused by a true engine failure. That's where the rotary has really earned my respect as a = viable a/c engine. Pay attention to the details!=20 Mark S.=20 On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Mike Wills wrote: This has been an interesting thread. In the end, it doesnt really matter = how many "major" parts you have - even a minor failure can bring you down. = While I believe the basic rotary engine itself is more fault tolerant than a recip, the peripherals used in the typical rotary install are a lot more complex than a typical recip install. Since we rotary fliers dont have = the benefit of 70 years worth of experience flying behind the typical LyCon = farm implement I think overall our odds are considerably worse. Comes down to = how well an individual engineer's his installation and there is a tremendous amount of variation here. =20 The dependence on electronics in the typical rotary install is a good example. I may be a little sensitive to this issue since I've been = trying to find an intermittent glitch (2 times in 22 hours of engine testing). =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 7:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines =20 Good analysis and logic, Gary. =20 You=92d make a good addition to the =93rotary community=94. I have = noticed over the 10 years I have been flying my rotary powered RV-6A that the = problems have decreased considerably, the success rate and completion rate has = gone up and first flights are now occurring without significant problems =96 = even cooling is OK {:>). I believe most of this improvement can be = attributed to folks sharing their knowledge, problems and solutions with others - such = as on this list. =20 =20 I know that fewer parts count is often touted as one of the rotary = benefit =96 and while it is true that the part count is lower, the most significant thing (in my opinion) is not only does the lower part count help = reliability (if it is not there =96 it can not break), but if you look a the design = of the eccentric shaft (for example) you notice the absence of the jogs in a typical crankshaft and their stress points. The thing is over 3=94 in diameter at some points and does not have the same inertia loads born by = a piston crankshaft. The parts that are there are of very robust design. Finally, the rotary is (I believe) more tolerant of damage and tends to = fail =93gradually and gracefully=94, it can take a licking and keep on = ticking as the old saying goes. Only extended time and numbers will provide the true = MTBF for the rotary, but I believe it looks very promising. =20 Failure of rotary engines are extremely rare, but unfortunately, as with many alternative engine installations, auxiliary subsystems such as fuel = and ignition frequently being one-off designs have been the cause of most failures =96 with probably fuel the prime culprit. The good news is = that for some platforms (such as the RVs) we have pretty much established what = will make an installation successful. The Canard crowd is fast approaching = that status with their somewhat more challenging cooling requirements being = over come. =20 Having lost a rotor during flight due to putting in high compression rotors with worn apex seal slots worn beyond specs (found this out later = =96 my fault for not being aware of this spec limit and checking it) which = led to apex seal failure and consequence lost of most of the power from one rotor, I was still able to maintain 6500 MSL at WOT and fuel mixture = knob to full rich =96 flowing 14.5 GPH =96 a lot of it undoubtedly being blown = through the disabled rotor. Flew it back 60 miles to a suitable runway and made = a non-eventful landing. There was a small increase in vibration due to = the power strokes no longer being balanced, but nothing bad and you could = still read the needles on the gauges. Other folks have had FOD damage to a = rotor and also make it to a safe landing. Two folks lost cooling (one loss of coolant fluid , one lost of water pump) and while they did cook the = engines, both made it back to a safe landing. So all things considered, I think = the rotary continues to show that if the installation is designed properly, = it makes a very viable and reliable aircraft power plant. =20 Failure of rotary engines in aircraft are extremely rare, but = unfortunately, as with many alternative engine installations, auxiliary subsystems such = as fuel and ignition frequently being one-off designs - have been the cause = of most failures. The good news is that for some platforms (such as the = RVs) we have pretty much established what will make an installation = successful. The Canard crowd is fast approaching that status with their somewhat = more challenging cooling requirements being over come. =20 My rotary installation cost me $6500 back in 1996, the primary cost = being a rebuilt engine $2000 and the PSRU $2900. I have since purchased a 1991 turbo block engine from Japan for $900 and rebuilt it myself for another $2200. My radiators (GM evaporator cores) cost $5.00 from the junk yard = and another $50.00 each for having the bungs welded on. So depending on how much you buy and how much you build the price can vary considerably. = Today, I would say it would take a minimum of around $8000 and more nominally around $10000 for a complete rotary installation in an RV =96 some folks = could do it for less, some for more. =20 But, regardless of the technical merit (or not) in someone=92s mind, the crucial thing (in my opinion) is you need to address two personal = factors: =20 1. What is your risk tolerance? It doesn=92t really matter how sexy = some =93exotic=94 engine installation may seem =96 if you are not comfortable = flying behind (or in front) of it, then it certainly does not makes sense to = go that route. After all, this is supposed to have an element of fun and enjoyment to it. =20 2. What is your knowledge, experience and background (and you don=92t = have to be an engineer) and do you feel comfortable with the level of = involvement needed. =20 So hope you continue to contribute to expanding our knowledge and understanding of the rotary in its application to power plant for = aircraft. =20 =20 Best Regards =20 Ed =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 8:36 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines =20 Just to add a few more comments and answers to the several excellent comments posted: =20 How many parts does it take to make a rotary rotate? Well, "parts = aren't parts" in this case. Mark was right in that there are maybe 4 "major" components, but you have to define major. A piston engine certainly has = far more major parts. Is a valve a "major" part? I think so. Is a rotor corner button a major part? Not sure, but probably not. Is each planet gear in the PSRU a major part? I say yes, and the PSRU is an integral = part of the rotary engine. As someone correctly pointed out, it's not how = many parts, but the reliability of the total system that counts. Just = looking at the history of the rotary (which, from the implication of another post) = it's not that good, but I don't think it has anything to do with reliability = of the concept. It's more to do with the experimental nature of the builds = and installations. My original point, perhaps not well expressed is that to = say there are just 4 parts is an oversimplification. But let's face it, to = put in an engine that has had many thousands of identical predecessors is = less "experimental" than one that hasn't.. =20 Are we ES drivers more conservative? Probably so, since the ES is = probably one of the experimentals most similar to production aircraft, and not = just because the Columbia (can't force myself to say Cezzna :-) was a = derivative. Therefore, it tends to attract conservative builders and owners. Not surprising then that almost all ES's have traditional powerplants, with = the most excellent exception of Mark. While there may be more, I know of = only two off-airport landings caused by engine failures in the ES in almost = 20 years of experience. One was caused by fuel starvation right after = takeoff (fatal) and one was caused by a PSRU failure in an auto engine = conversion. So our old-fashioned conservative nature has served us pretty well. =20 Yes, I was assuming that the rotary had electronic fuel injection and ignition, but that by itself doesn't change the inherent fuel efficiency = of the engine. Direct injection does have a potential to improve BSFC = because the fuel charge can be stratified. It will probably decrease available power, though. I think the best rotary will be 5% less efficient than = the "best" piston engine(same refinements added to each). But I stated that = as a simple disadvantage - as Mark pointed out, it isn't that simple. The rotary already comes configured to run on auto gas. The piston engine = can also be so configured, but the compression ratio reduction would reduce = its BSFC and maybe durability advantage. The total operating cost is = certainly significantly less if auto gas can always be used to refuel. I assumed = in my assessment that it will only be available 50% of the time. The real disadvantage, which I failed to state, is that the extra fuel required = for a given mission might be 5 or 10% higher and that negated the weight advantage, if only for long-range flights. =20 Is the engine less expensive? I did a thorough analysis of a = direct-drive recip auto engine installation and my conclusion was that if the auto = engine were equivalent in reliability to the aircraft engine it would likely = cost just as much. Is the same true of the rotary? I'm not sure, but you = have to consider the total cost, including engineering of all the parts in = the system, not just the core engine. I would love to do a rotary = installation, but I don't think I could justify it by cost reduction. =20 It wasn't mentioned in the posts, but some have claimed the rotary is "smoother" than a recip. I at first resisted that notion. Sure, any = rotary given sufficient counterbalancing, is perfectly balanced. A 4-cylinder opposed recip is not - there is a significant secondary couple. The 6-cylinder opposed engine is perfectly balanced, but only for PRIMARY = and SECONDARY forces and couples - higher order forces have never really = been analyzed, although they would be very small. And then consider the = forces within the engine that have to be resisted by that long, heavy, but = flexible crankshaft. So it isn't the mechanical balance that gives the rotary an advantage. Let's take a look at the the torsional pulsations, comparing = the 3-rotor against the 6-cylinder: A 6-cylinder engine has 3 power = impulses per rotation, as does the 3-rotor, so they are the same, right? Wrong. They both incorporate 4 "stroke" cycles, meaning that there separate and sequential intake, compression, power and exhaust events so that is the = same for both. The power event, which is the source of the torque impulse, = takes 1/2 of a crank rotation for the recip. In the rotary the power event requires 1/4 of a ROTOR rotation, but the rotor rotates at 1/3 crank rotation - the result is that the power impulse lasts 3/4 of a CRANK rotation, 50% longer than in a recip. Therefore, the torsional = excitation delivered to the propeller, PSRU and to the airframe is significantly = less than for a recip. And if you analyze the actual forces imparted, they = go down by the square of the rpm. The torsional vibration amplitude goes = down by a factor of 4 just because the rpm of the rotary turns about twice as fast. If you've skipped to the bottom of the paragraph, as you probably should have :-), yes the rotary is "smoother" - a LOT smoother.. (my apologies to rotary purists, for simplicity I used the word "crankshaft" = for both engines) =20 But just because you can burn auto gas should you? The biggest problems with auto gas in recip aircraft have nothing to do with the engine, but = with the high vapor pressure of the fuel - it is more prone to vapor lock. = The fuel systems of certified aircraft are not particularly well designed = with regard to vapor lock. "Fortunately", rotary engines typically have no mechanical fuel pump and are forced to rely on electric pumps. = Fortunately because the pumps can be located at the very bottom of the aircraft and close to the fuel tanks, making vapor lock much less likely. I would caution any builders to consider vapor lock possibilities very = seriously, much more so if you intend to run auto gas. when I was going to do this = I planned to put one electric pump in the wing root of each wing, feeding = the engine directly(the check valve in the non-running pump prevents back-feeding). Redundancy was by a "crossfeed" line that could connect = the tanks together. =20 And thanks, Mark for - probably incorrectly - referring to me as a "good engineer". I'll have to put that in my resume! =20 Have a good day, Gary (do you allow us outsiders in your events? I'll park well away :-) =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C9BBB2.64B86A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Actually, Mark, =A0I had flow 10 = hours with the woodruff key missing and had just completed a 2 =BD hr flight from = NC to FL over the okefenokee swamp!=A0 Fortunately, the unintended WOT startup = the next cool morning broke the torque of the clamping nut loose and fortunately = I heeded the unusual oil pressure signals.=A0 =A0Here is=A0 a write up I = provided for a best practices list.

 

Problem: It is relatively easy to place the 13B oil-pump chain drive sprocket on the = oil pump shaft without having the woodruff key correctly positioned. Sliding the sprocket on the shaft can push the key out of its slot in the shaft and = trap it against the oil pump aluminum housing. The torque (30 ft/lbs) of the oil = shaft nut can provide sufficient clamping force on the drive sprocket, = pressing it against the oil pump shaft shoulder, that it will drive the oil pump - = at least for a while. I flew approx. 10 hours with the oil pump in this condition = - until a fortunate event caused the sprocket drive to break lose from the clamping force of the nut with resulting drop in oil pressure to 20 psi. Fortunately this happened on the ground and investigation led to = discovery of the problem.



Recommendation: Use some = method to ensure the key is properly position before placing washer/nut on the = shaft. Here are two suggestions:

1.) Visually ensure that the key is in the shaft by looking down the = shaft keyway.

2.) Use a paper clip with one leg bent 90 degrees, insert the end of the = bent leg in the woodruff keyway and ensure that it does not extend all the = way. In other words, the leg of the clip should encounter the key before the leg = is fully inserted into the keyway.

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Sunday, April 12, = 2009 5:07 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Engine Events was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines

 

Ed,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hadn't you flown at least once with the = missing woodruff key?  If so, I think luck was on your side that it didn't = fail in flight.  Besides, I've added two other incidents which happened on = the ground, so I will keep this one just to remind others of the importance = of checking the woodruff key during assembly.

Mark

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t; wrote:

Oh, Yes, that among many others, but was not airborne = – always figured anything that wanted to go wrong on the ground was OK by = me {:>).  After 450 hours of flying behind this rotary, I’ve developed a bit of feel when things are just not right.  Sort of = the “..you develop good judgment from bad experiences, you encountered = bad experiences due to bad  judgment …” type = thing.

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Sunday, April 12, = 2009 2:21 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Events was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Engines

 

Ed,

Aren't you forgetting the incident involving the missing woodruff key in = the oil pump?  As I recall, another aborted takeoff (good = decision). 

Mark

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Ok, Mark

 

I think I see one (or more) of my “events” = in your list.  However, none actually required a forced landing = – in other words, I could have remained airborne should I have choose to do so.  In fact, I did - until a suitable and safe landing site was reached.  Well, Ok, the lost rotor really did beg for a landing as = soon as safely feasible {:>)

 

Event 1:

I lost the apex seal in my worn high compression = rotors at 160 hours on the block from a complete rebuild of a Japanese imported = 1991 turbo core.

 

Probably most important decision during the incident = was:

  1. Immediately turn for = closest good air field when the engine started to act = abnormal
  2. Recognizing that the = EGT on rotor 1 going to minimum indicated lack of useful combustion in = that rotor
  3. Realizing that power = (or lack thereof) was going to be an issue, I reached over and turned up the = manual fuel mixture to maximum rich – that move the fuel flow from 7 = gph up to over 14 gph.  Needless to say a lot of expensive fuel was = not providing much power on the bad rotor.  But, I managed to = maintain 6400 MSL fully loaded with fuel and camping = gear.
  4. After landing, I found = it took much more throttle to taxi up hill on one = rotor.

 

 

After loosing the rotor on way to 2005 Sun & Fun I = landed at what turned out to be a derelict airport (FB0) had just left and = radios were being stolen from aircraft on the field.  A county investigator = informed me after checking me out because I was “disassembling” my = aircraft to get the engine off to take home to = repair.

 

Event 2:

 

Because (in part) of my concern for my aircraft on = said airfield, I hasten (too hastily it turns out) rebuild my engine with new rotors.  I had the engine buttoned up and turned it over – it = was indeed a bit harder to turn over than I recalled from previous rebuilds = – but there was no scraping sound and compression was good, so convinced = myself just a damn good tight rebuild!  So reinstalled the engine.  = Even after it was running, I noted that for the first hour - anytime I = reduced the rpm below 2000 rpm the engine would quite.  (Did I fail to mention = that I had plenty of warning from the engine as well as from Bruce Turentine = and Tracy Crook).  But, after the engine had “loosened up” a bit, = it ran fine.

 

One the way to Charlie England’s Mississippi = Rotary fly in later that spring, I noticed my coolant pressure was very slowly = increasing – like about 1  psi each hour of flight.  It started out = at around 10-12 and by the time I got to Charlie’s place it was up to = 18 psi.  Well, I pretty much knew that I had a leak between coolant = galleys and combustion chamber.  Flew on to Louisiana to visit Kin folks, = upon departing one week later, I got up to just about lift-off speed but the = engine was missing a bit.  Nothing serious, power was good, but = still….. I aborted the take off.  Had brake line failure, hydraulic fluid fire = and went off the runway into a ditch (fortunately slow speed and shallow ditch).  Thanks to Laura and Tracy Crook was able to rebuild the = engine (without haste this time) during which time I found that one of the = small triangular end pieces of apex seals was missing from the front rotor, = instead there were two silver dollar size blue spots on the iron side housings = (that was also the vicinity where the TES O rings had failed (due to the clear localized high temps).  Apparently the apex part fell into one of = the milled lightening holes in the side of the rotor – if it had not = fallen into the hole which provided just enough clearance for the engine to = rotate – I am certain I would not have been able to rotate the assembly = by hand or starter. 

 

So in this case, no forced landing – never got airborne.  Then there was the 12 mile engine-out glide – but = that had nothing to do with the engine and everything to do with the pilot, = so I won’t go there {:>)

 

So here is some meat for your project = {:>)

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Sunday, April 12, = 2009 7:45 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines

 

Mike,

Has anyone ever tried to document the rotary incidents resulting in a = forced landing?

Here's what I recall from memory, so it likely is missing a few;
 
    3 forced landings due to ruptured oil coolers
    1 forced landing due to apex seal coming out of its = slot (rotor out of spec)
    1 forced landing due to improper assembly of engine = (seal wedged between rotor & side housing)
    1 forced landing on highway due to catastrophic = overheating of engine
    2 forced landings (one fatal) due to probable fuel = system design flaw 
    1 forced landing on highway due to ingestion of = FOD. 

There were a few others, such as turbo failures which allowed for = continued operation at reduced power, so we may or may not wish to include those here. 

While a number of these incidents date back quite a few years, and we = have made excellent progress, it says to me that we still have room for = improvement in the peripheral department.  The good news is that out of all of the incidents listed above, none of them were caused by a true engine failure.  That's where the rotary has really earned my respect as a = viable a/c engine.

Pay attention to the details!

Mark S.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:

This has been an interesting thread. In the end, it doesnt really matter how = many "major" parts you have - even a minor failure can bring you = down. While I believe the basic rotary engine itself is more fault tolerant = than a recip, the peripherals used in the typical rotary install are a lot more complex than a typical recip install. Since we rotary fliers dont have = the benefit of 70 years worth of experience flying behind the typical LyCon = farm implement I think overall our odds are considerably worse. Comes down to = how well an individual engineer's his installation and there is a tremendous = amount of variation here.

 

The dependence on electronics in the typical rotary install  is a good example. I may be a little sensitive to this issue since I've been = trying to find an intermittent glitch (2 times in 22 hours of engine = testing).

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW  

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Anderson =

Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 = 7:31 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines

 

Good analysis and logic, Gary.

 

You’d make a good addition to the “rotary community”.  I have noticed over the 10 years I have been = flying my rotary powered RV-6A that the problems have decreased considerably, the = success rate and completion rate has gone up and first flights are now occurring without significant problems – even cooling is OK {:>).  I believe most of this improvement can be attributed to folks sharing = their knowledge, problems and solutions with others - such as on this = list. 

 

I know that fewer parts count is often touted as one = of the rotary benefit – and while it is true that the part count is = lower, the most significant thing (in my opinion) is not only does the lower part = count help reliability (if it is not there – it can not break), but if = you look a the design of the eccentric shaft (for example) you notice the absence = of the jogs in a typical crankshaft and their stress points.  The thing is = over 3” in diameter at some points and does not have the same inertia = loads born by a piston crankshaft.  The parts that are there are of very = robust design.  Finally, the rotary is (I believe) more tolerant of damage = and tends to fail “gradually and gracefully”, it can take a = licking and keep on ticking as the old saying goes.  Only extended time and = numbers will provide the true MTBF for the rotary, but I believe it looks very = promising.

 

Failure of rotary engines are extremely rare, but unfortunately, as with many alternative engine installations, auxiliary subsystems such as fuel and ignition frequently being one-off designs = have been the cause of most failures – with probably fuel the prime = culprit.  The good news is that for some platforms (such as the RVs) we have = pretty much established what will make an installation successful.  The Canard = crowd is fast approaching that status with their somewhat more challenging = cooling requirements being over come.

 

  Having lost a rotor during flight due to = putting in high compression rotors with worn apex seal slots worn beyond specs = (found this out later – my fault for not being aware of this spec limit and = checking it) which led to apex seal failure and consequence lost of most of the = power from one rotor, I was still able to maintain 6500 MSL at WOT and fuel = mixture knob to full rich – flowing 14.5 GPH – a lot of it = undoubtedly  being blown through the disabled rotor.  Flew it back 60 = miles to a suitable runway and made a non-eventful landing.   There was a = small increase in vibration due to the power strokes no longer being balanced, = but nothing bad and you could still read the needles on the gauges.  = Other folks have had FOD damage to a rotor and also make it to a safe = landing.  Two folks lost cooling (one loss of coolant fluid , one lost of water = pump) and while they did cook the engines, both made it back to a safe = landing.  So all things considered, I think the rotary continues to show that if the installation is designed properly, it makes a very viable and reliable = aircraft power plant.

 

Failure of rotary engines in aircraft are extremely = rare, but unfortunately, as with many alternative engine installations, auxiliary subsystems such as fuel and ignition frequently being one-off designs - = have been the cause of most failures.  The good news is that for some = platforms (such as the RVs) we have pretty much established what will make an installation successful.  The Canard crowd is fast approaching that = status with their somewhat more challenging cooling requirements being over = come.

 

My rotary installation cost me $6500 back in 1996, the primary cost being a rebuilt engine $2000 and the PSRU $2900.  I = have since purchased a 1991 turbo block engine from Japan for $900 and rebuilt = it myself for another $2200.  My radiators (GM evaporator cores) cost = $5.00 from the junk yard and another $50.00 each for having the bungs welded on.  So depending on how much you buy and how much you build the = price can vary considerably.  Today, I would say it would take a minimum of = around $8000 and more nominally around $10000 for a complete rotary = installation in an RV – some folks could do it for less, some for = more.

 

But, regardless of the technical merit (or not) in someone’s mind, the crucial thing (in my opinion) is you need to = address two personal factors:

 

1.  What is your risk tolerance?  It = doesn’t really matter how sexy some “exotic” engine installation may = seem – if you are not comfortable flying behind (or in front) of it, = then it certainly does not  makes sense to go that route.  After all, = this is supposed to have an element of fun and enjoyment to = it.

 

2.  What is your knowledge, experience and = background (and you don’t have to be an engineer) and do you feel comfortable = with the level of involvement needed.

 

So hope you continue to contribute to expanding our = knowledge and understanding of the rotary in its application to power plant for = aircraft.

 

 

Best Regards

 

Ed

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Gary = Casey
Sent: Saturday, April 11, = 2009 8:36 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Rotary Engines

 

Just to add a few more comments and answers to the several excellent comments = posted:

 

How many parts does it take to make a rotary rotate?  Well, "parts = aren't parts" in this case.  Mark was right in that there are maybe 4 "major" components, but you have to define major.  A = piston engine certainly has far more major parts.  Is a valve a = "major" part?  I think so.  Is a rotor corner button a major part? =  Not sure, but probably not.  Is each planet gear in the PSRU a major = part?  I say yes, and the PSRU is an integral part of the rotary engine.  As someone correctly pointed out, it's not how many parts, but the reliability of the total system that counts.  Just looking at the = history of the rotary (which, from the implication of another post) it's not = that good, but I don't think it has anything to do with reliability of the concept.  It's more to do with the experimental nature of the builds and installations.  My original point, perhaps not well expressed is = that to say there are just 4 parts is an oversimplification.  But let's = face it, to put in an engine that has had many thousands of identical = predecessors is less "experimental" than one that = hasn't..

 

Are we ES drivers more conservative?  Probably so, since the ES is probably = one of the experimentals most similar to production aircraft, and not just = because the Columbia (can't force myself to say Cezzna :-) was a derivative.  Therefore, it = tends to attract conservative builders and owners.  Not surprising then that = almost all ES's have traditional powerplants, with the most excellent exception = of Mark.  While there may be more, I know of only two off-airport = landings caused by engine failures in the ES in almost 20 years of experience. =  One was caused by fuel starvation right after takeoff (fatal) and one was = caused by a PSRU failure in an auto engine conversion.  So our old-fashioned conservative nature has served us pretty = well.

 

Yes, I was assuming that the rotary had electronic fuel injection and ignition, = but that by itself doesn't change the inherent fuel efficiency of the = engine.  Direct injection does have a potential to improve BSFC because the = fuel charge can be stratified.  It will probably decrease available = power, though.  I think the best rotary will be 5% less efficient than the "best" piston engine(same refinements added to each). =  But I stated that as a simple disadvantage - as Mark pointed out, it isn't = that simple.  The rotary already comes configured to run on auto gas. =  The piston engine can also be so configured, but the compression ratio = reduction would reduce its BSFC and maybe durability advantage.  The total = operating cost is certainly significantly less if auto gas can always be used to = refuel.  I assumed in my assessment that it will only be available 50% of = the time.  The real disadvantage, which I failed to state, is that the = extra fuel required for a given mission might be 5 or 10% higher and that = negated the weight advantage, if only for long-range = flights.

 

Is the engine less expensive?  I did a thorough analysis of a direct-drive = recip auto engine installation and my conclusion was that if the auto engine = were equivalent in reliability to the aircraft engine it would likely cost = just as much.  Is the same true of the rotary?  I'm not sure, but you have = to consider the total cost, including engineering of all the parts in the = system, not just the core engine.  I would love to do a rotary = installation, but I don't think I could justify it by cost = reduction.

 

It wasn't mentioned in the posts, but some have claimed the rotary is "smoother" than a recip.  I at first resisted that = notion.  Sure, any rotary given sufficient counterbalancing, is perfectly balanced.  A 4-cylinder opposed recip is not - there is a = significant secondary couple.  The 6-cylinder opposed engine is perfectly = balanced, but only for PRIMARY and SECONDARY forces and couples - higher order = forces have never really been analyzed, although they would be very small. =  And then consider the forces within the engine that have to be resisted by = that long, heavy, but flexible crankshaft.  So it isn't the mechanical = balance that gives the rotary an advantage.  Let's take a look at the the torsional pulsations, comparing the 3-rotor against the 6-cylinder: =  A 6-cylinder engine has 3 power impulses per rotation, as does the = 3-rotor, so they are the same, right?  Wrong.  They both incorporate 4 "stroke" cycles, meaning that there separate and sequential = intake, compression, power and exhaust events so that is the same for both.  The power = event, which is the source of the torque impulse, takes 1/2 of a crank = rotation for the recip.  In the rotary the power event requires 1/4 of a = ROTOR rotation, but the rotor rotates at 1/3 crank rotation - the result is = that the power impulse lasts 3/4 of a CRANK rotation, 50% longer than in a recip.  Therefore, the torsional excitation delivered to the propeller, = PSRU and to the airframe is significantly less than for a recip.  And if you = analyze the actual forces imparted, they go down by the square of the rpm. =  The torsional vibration amplitude goes down by a factor of 4 just because = the rpm of the rotary turns about twice as fast.  If you've skipped to the = bottom of the paragraph, as you probably should have :-), yes the rotary is "smoother" - a LOT smoother.. (my apologies to rotary purists, = for simplicity I used the word "crankshaft" for both = engines)

 

But just because you can burn auto gas should you?  The biggest problems = with auto gas in recip aircraft have nothing to do with the engine, but with the = high vapor pressure of the fuel - it is more prone to vapor lock.  The = fuel systems of certified aircraft are not particularly well designed with = regard to vapor lock.  "Fortunately", rotary engines typically have = no mechanical fuel pump and are forced to rely on electric pumps.  Fortunately because the pumps can be located at the very bottom of = the aircraft and close to the fuel tanks, making vapor lock much less = likely.  I would caution any builders to consider vapor lock possibilities = very seriously, much more so if you intend to run auto gas.  when I was = going to do this I planned to put one electric pump in the wing root of each = wing, feeding the engine directly(the check valve in the non-running pump = prevents back-feeding).  Redundancy was by a "crossfeed" line that = could connect the tanks together.

 

And thanks, Mark for - probably incorrectly - referring to me as a = "good engineer".  I'll have to put that in my = resume!

 

Have a good day,

Gary=

(do you allow us outsiders in your events?  I'll park well away = :-)

 




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