X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3529651 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:06:55 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090306030619.ZOYS16134.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:06:19 -0500 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id Pf6G1b00C1CvZmk04f6JWZ; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:06:18 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=mI5N9dps1ioA:10 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=-iADCD9w0H7NZs_w_w4A:9 a=6TzoSwEmfzpJC-qp2KIA:7 a=TvG6oU_93OZsgpFTdQH2nAJhj-gA:4 a=gi0PWCVxevcA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=59dLalVm1jpto1Oj:21 a=TF6EQcFT7TbkPNIS:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <004501c99e08$83d65ac0$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:06:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 I wondered about that too? Seems a lot of NTSB reports create as many questions as they answer. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > > > Was there no chance that 'no evidence of fuel in the tanks' could have > been a factor? > > Charlie > > Ed Anderson wrote: >> >> That is what the NTSB report also concluded, Bobby, failure of the >> ignition switch. >> >> All of my crucial switches (EC2, ignition, fuel pump) are wired to a 20 >> amp circuit breaker I call my “Live Man Switch”. The circuit breaker is >> normally OPEN so all switches work normally. Should the engine stop >> running due to a mechanical failure of a switch, pushing in the CB will >> route power to all crucial circuits. I spent $$ on sealed, heavy duty >> industrial toggle switches back in the early 90s – they cost over $30.00 >> each back then. But realizing that anything mechanical (or electrical) >> can fail, I decided to wire up my “Live Man Switch”. >> >> I used it once during a take off I aborted after getting airborne due to >> the engine surging – turned out that it was nothing electrical, so it did >> not remedy the problem, but I was pleased I had remembered it and had >> punched it shut. >> >> This was when I was using a HALTECH EFI – the problem was you had to tune >> it with a lap top and you couldn’t tune the Fuel map on the ground beyond >> your static rpm. Well, I did the fuel map up to my static of 5200 (when I >> was using the 2.17:1 gear box) and the extrapolated the fuel map pass >> that point (obviously inappropriately). As soon as I lifted off the >> ground, the engine started a wild surge between approx 5500 and 3000 rpm. >> I punched my life man switch (which did nothing) and then decided to put >> it back down on the 2200 ft strip doing approx 75 mph. Touched down 300 >> ft from the end and pushed the brake peddles through the floor. Thought I >> had made the wrong decision (and probably did) as the end of the runway >> approached like and express train. But ended up about 12 ft off the end >> of the runway trying to get my heart restarted – no damaged to anything >> other than my nerves, lifespan and seat cushion. >> >> In hindsight, with a bit more experience I would have recognized the >> “lean surge” – first time I had encountered it in the rotary and then I >> would have realized the solution would have been to reach over and turned >> the manual mixture control knob to full rich. But with only about 1-2 >> seconds to make a decision – I went with my pre-made decision that I >> would rather go off the far end of the runway at 20-30 mph than get >> airborne and then have to set it down in a less desirable situation. A >> few days later the HALTECH failed with the injectors full open and I had >> gasoline running out the tail pipes before I could get the pumps shut >> off. Ordered Tracy’s EC2 and have flown with confidence ever since. >> >> But, back to the design issues – I try not to have any unnecessary single >> points of failure, but I think we all realize there is risk in our >> endeavor and should plan accordingly. >> >> Ed >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> *On Behalf Of *Bobby J. Hughes >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:44 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - >> >> I spoke with Powersport after the crash. Jim had installed a key switch >> that was also his power master switch. I believe the key switch failed. >> >> Bobby >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> *On Behalf Of *Ed Anderson >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:33 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - >> >> Thanks for the additional info on Jim’s crash, Bill. I was not aware that >> he had broken his arm. >> >> Hummm, do you recall exactly what failed in his system? – I’m interested >> as I fly with a single battery. I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years >> of never using the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took >> it out. I am waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries that >> Bill Dube is developing – but, have to wait until the price comes down a >> bit {:>). >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> *On Behalf Of *wrjjrs@aol.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:37 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - >> >> Ed, >> Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused >> by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system >> which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt >> otherwise. The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened >> by the Vans test BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum >> flight plan but made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett >> Hatch Powersport EMS was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY >> flight in Dan Checcoways 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very >> comparable in cost and fuel consumption. >> Bill Jepson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ed Anderson >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - >> >> Yes, Mike, I read that article about the comparison as well. This was >> clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the >> rotary. One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately >> only the aircraft – never did hear the cause. So I personally did not get >> any indication reading the results that either of the pilots really >> understood how to get the best out of their rotary. But, yes, the >> powersport engine certainly looked nice – but at $30K it should {:>). >> >> =0 A >> >> One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 >> air race on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races >> because of the embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was >> before his Renesis installation) beating lycomings that in some cases had >> $10,000 of additional prep. >> >> Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the >> racers), with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed >> pitch wooden prop winning the air races. Didn’t hear anything about it in >> any of the aviation publications did you? – too embarrassing to all those >> Lycoming owners. So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude >> further embarrassment – Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to insurance >> consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) >> >> Ed >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike Wills >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM >> *To:* Rotary m otors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - >> >> There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s >> powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo >> RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary >> powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile >> out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the >> Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight >> was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45. >> >> My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the numbers >> would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. >> No idea what it does with mixture. >> >> Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries >> being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is >> going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll >> volunteer to write the magazine article! >> >> I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler than >> the Lyc powered RVs! >> >> Mike Wills >> >> RV-4 N144MW >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* Al Gietzen >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM >> >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Fuel economy - >> >> Mark wrote: >> >> Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where >> they are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc. >> >> That seems to be the rule. I chatted yesterday with a hangar >> neighbor with his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. >> Does he run lean of peak? “Eh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded >> different, and I hear the valves don’t last as long; so I run it >> rich of peak. It’s a few more dollars, but cheap insurance” >> >> Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I know of, and >> with a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an >> issue. As long as they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in >> my neck of the woods, I'll keep burning mogas and pocketing the >> difference. >> >> I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the >> accuracy of the test,=2 0the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol – >> consistent with what Mike said regarding CA fuels. So I got out my >> light and little my mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; and >> inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign of any >> softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing >> in the fuel filter. So far, so good. >> >> So I’ll keep runnin’ with auto fuel – certainly when near my home >> base. Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying – including the >> 6 – 8 cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, >> $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix ¾ oz per ga.). >> >> You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do something >> a little different." As for that statement... I couldn't agree >> more, but how do you quantify something like that? >> >> I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest >> motivation was to do something a little better." >> >> Al G >> > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >