X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3529590 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:01:54 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090306020115.XNRR15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2009 02:01:15 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:01:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01C99DD5.883CCA50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acmd7A6gVG4SQk0GT06zI5epUiX6UQAEMVxA Message-Id: <20090306020115.XNRR15930.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C99DD5.883CCA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is what the NTSB report also concluded, Bobby, failure of the = ignition switch. =20 All of my crucial switches (EC2, ignition, fuel pump) are wired to a = 20 amp circuit breaker I call my =93Live Man Switch=94. The circuit = breaker is normally OPEN so all switches work normally. Should the engine stop = running due to a mechanical failure of a switch, pushing in the CB will route = power to all crucial circuits. I spent $$ on sealed, heavy duty industrial = toggle switches back in the early 90s =96 they cost over $30.00 each back then. = But realizing that anything mechanical (or electrical) can fail, I decided = to wire up my =93Live Man Switch=94. =20 I used it once during a take off I aborted after getting airborne due to = the engine surging =96 turned out that it was nothing electrical, so it did = not remedy the problem, but I was pleased I had remembered it and had = punched it shut. =20 This was when I was using a HALTECH EFI =96 the problem was you had to = tune it with a lap top and you couldn=92t tune the Fuel map on the ground = beyond your static rpm. Well, I did the fuel map up to my static of 5200 (when = I was using the 2.17:1 gear box) and the extrapolated the fuel map pass = that point (obviously inappropriately). As soon as I lifted off the ground, = the engine started a wild surge between approx 5500 and 3000 rpm. I punched = my life man switch (which did nothing) and then decided to put it back down = on the 2200 ft strip doing approx 75 mph. Touched down 300 ft from the end = and pushed the brake peddles through the floor. Thought I had made the = wrong decision (and probably did) as the end of the runway approached like and express train. But ended up about 12 ft off the end of the runway = trying to get my heart restarted =96 no damaged to anything other than my nerves, lifespan and seat cushion. =20 In hindsight, with a bit more experience I would have recognized the = =93lean surge=94 =96 first time I had encountered it in the rotary and then I = would have realized the solution would have been to reach over and turned the = manual mixture control knob to full rich. But with only about 1-2 seconds to = make a decision =96 I went with my pre-made decision that I would rather go = off the far end of the runway at 20-30 mph than get airborne and then have to = set it down in a less desirable situation. A few days later the HALTECH failed with the injectors full open and I had gasoline running out the tail = pipes before I could get the pumps shut off. Ordered Tracy=92s EC2 and have = flown with confidence ever since. =20 But, back to the design issues =96 I try not to have any unnecessary = single points of failure, but I think we all realize there is risk in our = endeavor and should plan accordingly. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =20 I spoke with Powersport after the crash. Jim had installed a key switch = that was also his power master switch. I believe the key switch failed.=20 =20 Bobby =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Thanks for the additional info on Jim=92s crash, Bill. I was not aware = that he had broken his arm. =20 Hummm, do you recall exactly what failed in his system? =96 I=92m = interested as I fly with a single battery. I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years = of never using the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took it out. I am waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries that = Bill Dube is developing =96 but, have to wait until the price comes down a = bit {:>). =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:37 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =20 Ed, Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused = by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system = which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise. = The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the Vans = test BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight plan but = made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powersport EMS = was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checcoways = 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fuel consumption. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Yes, Mike, I read that article about the comparison as well. This was clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the = rotary. One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft =96 never did hear the cause. So I personally did not get any indication reading the results that either of the pilots really = understood how to get the best out of their rotary. But, yes, the powersport = engine certainly looked nice =96 but at $30K it should {:>). =20 =3D0 A=20 One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 = air race on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races because = of the embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was before his = Renesis installation) beating lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of = additional prep. =20 =20 Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the = racers), with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed pitch = wooden prop winning the air races. Didn=92t hear anything about it in any of = the aviation publications did you? =96 too embarrassing to all those = Lycoming owners. So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude further embarrassment =96 Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) =20 =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM To: Rotary m otors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =20 There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo = RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45. =20 My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the = numbers would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. = No idea what it does with mixture. =20 Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is = going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll volunteer to write the magazine article! =20 I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler than = the Lyc powered RVs! =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -=20 =20 Mark wrote: Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where they = are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc. =20 That seems to be the rule. I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor = with his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. Does he run lean of peak? =93Eh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear = the valves don=92t last as long; so I run it rich of peak. It=92s a few = more dollars, but cheap insurance=94 =20 Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I know of, and with = a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an issue. As long = as they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in my neck of the woods, = I'll keep burning mogas and pocketing the difference. =20 I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of = the test,=3D2 0the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol =96 consistent with = what Mike said regarding CA fuels. So I got out my light and little my mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel = tanks. No sign of any softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing in the fuel filter. So far, so good. So I=92ll keep runnin=92 with auto fuel =96 certainly when near my home = base. Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 = cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix = =BE oz per ga.). =20 You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a = little different." As for that statement... I couldn't agree more, but how do = you quantify something like that? =20 I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation was to = do something a little better."=20 Al G =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 _____ =20 A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C99DD5.883CCA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is what the NTSB report also concluded, Bobby, failure of the ignition = switch.

 

=A0 All of my crucial switches = (EC2, ignition, fuel pump) are wired to a 20 amp circuit breaker I call my = “Live Man Switch”.=A0 The circuit breaker is normally OPEN so all = switches work normally.=A0 Should the engine stop running due to a mechanical failure = of a switch, pushing in the CB will route power to all crucial circuits.=A0 I = spent $$ on sealed, heavy duty industrial toggle =A0=A0switches back in the early = 90s – they cost over $30.00 each back then.=A0 But realizing that anything = mechanical (or electrical) can fail, I decided to wire up my “Live Man = Switch”.

 

I used it once during a take off I = aborted after getting airborne due to the engine surging – turned out that = it was nothing electrical, so it did not remedy the problem, but I was pleased = I had remembered it and had punched it shut.

 

=A0 This was when I was using a = HALTECH EFI – the problem was you had to tune it with a lap top and you couldn’t = tune the Fuel map on the ground beyond your static rpm.=A0 Well, I did the = fuel map up to my static of 5200 (when I was using the 2.17:1 gear box) and the extrapolated the fuel map pass that point (obviously = inappropriately).=A0=A0 As soon as I lifted off the ground, the engine started a wild surge between = approx 5500 and 3000 rpm.=A0 I punched my life man switch (which did nothing) = and then decided to put it back down on the 2200 ft strip doing approx 75 mph.=A0 = Touched down 300 ft from the end and pushed the brake peddles through the = floor.=A0 Thought I had made the wrong decision (and probably did) as the end of = the runway approached like and express train.=A0 But ended up about 12 ft = off the end of the runway trying to get my heart restarted – no damaged to = anything other than my nerves, lifespan and seat = cushion.

 

In hindsight, with a bit more = experience I would have recognized the “lean surge” – first time I = had encountered it in the rotary and then I would have =A0realized the = solution would have been to reach over and turned the manual mixture control knob to = full rich.=A0 But with only about 1-2 seconds to make a decision – I went with = my pre-made decision that I would rather go off the far end of the runway = at 20-30 mph than get airborne and then have to set it down in a less desirable situation.=A0 A few days later the HALTECH failed with the injectors = full open and I had gasoline running out the tail pipes before I could get the = pumps shut off.=A0 Ordered Tracy’s EC2 and have flown with confidence ever = since.

 

But, back to the design issues = – I try not to have any unnecessary single points of failure, but I think we all realize there is risk in our endeavor and should plan = accordingly.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Thursday, March 05, = 2009 6:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel economy -

 

I spoke with Powersport after the = crash. Jim had installed a key switch that was also his power master switch. I = believe the key switch failed.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, March 05, = 2009 4:33 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel economy -

Thanks for the additional info on Jim’s crash, Bill. I was not aware that he had broken his = arm.

 

 Hummm, do you recall exactly = what failed in his system? – I’m interested as I fly with a = single battery.  I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years of never using = the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took it out.  I am waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries that Bill Dube = is developing – but, have to wait until the price comes down a bit = {:>).

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 05, = 2009 11:37 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel economy -

 

Ed,
Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not = caused by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system = which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise. = The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the Vans test BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight plan but made = them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powersport EMS was = also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checcoways 100 mile = race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fuel = consumption.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -

Yes, Mike,  I read that = article about the comparison as well.  This was clearly a case of two guys who = had more money than knowledge of the rotary.  One eventually had an engine = failure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft – never did hear the cause.  So I personally did not get any indication reading the = results that either of the pilots really understood how to get the best out of their rotary.  But, yes, the powersport engine certainly looked nice = – but at $30K it should {:>).

 

=3D0 A

One the other hand, I personally = saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air race on two occasions before they = decided to stop the air races because of the embarrassment of his junk yard = engine (yes, this was before his Renesis installation) beating lycomings that = in some cases had $10,000 of additional prep.  =

 

Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the racers), with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden = prop winning the air races.  Didn’t hear anything about it in any = of the aviation publications did you?  – too embarrassing to all = those Lycoming owners.   So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude further embarrassment – Yeah! I know they claimed it was = due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! = {:>)

 

 

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, March = 04, 2009 10:50 PM
To: Rotary m otors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel economy -

 

There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of = Van's factory demo RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The = rotary powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile = out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the = Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45.

 

 My guess is that if the pilots could have = aggressively leaned the numbers would be closer but the = rotaries were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. No idea what it does with = mixture.

 

 Anyway its articles like this that = perpetuate the ideas about rotaries being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers = to contradict, this is going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll volunteer to write the magazine = article!

 

 I should also mention that the Powersport RVs = looked WAYYYY cooler than the Lyc powered RVs!

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Al Gietzen =

Sent: = Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -

 

Mark = wrote:

Most are just plain scared to run their = engines lean of peak where they are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc.

 

That seems to be the rule. =  I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor with his beautiful Lancair = Legacy with Continental 550.  Does he run lean of peak? “Eh-h, well, I = tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear the valves don’t last as = long; so I run it rich of peak.  It’s a few more dollars, but cheap = insurance”

 

Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I = know of, and with a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't = an issue.  As long as they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in my neck of the woods, I'll keep burning mogas and = pocketing the difference. 

I did the ethanol test on my auto = fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of the test,=3D2 0the fuel had between 4 = and 6% ethanol – consistent with what Mike said regarding CA fuels. =  So I got out my light and little my mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; = and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign of any softening of the = surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing in the fuel filter. So far, so = good.

So I’ll keep runnin’ = with auto fuel – certainly when near my home base.  Saves close to = $15 for every hour of flying – including the 6 – 8 cents/ga for = the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix =BE oz = per ga.).

 

You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do = something a little different."  As for that statement... I couldn't = agree more, but how do you quantify something like that?  =

=
=

I like to put it = differently: "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a little = better." = ;

Al G

 



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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

=

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy = steps!



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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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