X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail.qnsi.net ([66.219.56.248] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3529436 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:42:31 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.248; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C99DEC.3C4C5D10" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:43:50 -0600 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F30D811C@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - Thread-Index: Acmd4rpHZVi3iwevQmKziN3mYTV4LwACUiwg References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C99DEC.3C4C5D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I spoke with Powersport after the crash. Jim had installed a key switch = that was also his power master switch. I believe the key switch failed.=20 =20 Bobby ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Thanks for the additional info on Jim's crash, Bill. I was not aware = that he had broken his arm. =20 Hummm, do you recall exactly what failed in his system? - I'm = interested as I fly with a single battery. I initially flew with 2 but = after 8 years of never using the second one but to help crank on a cold = morning I took it out. I am waiting on one of those super duper very = tiny batteries that Bill Dube is developing - but, have to wait until = the price comes down a bit {:>). =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com =20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html = =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW = =20 http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm = =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:37 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =20 Ed, Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused = by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system = which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt = otherwise. The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened = by the Vans test BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum = flight plan but made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett = Hatch Powersport EMS was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY = flight in Dan Checcoways 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very = comparable in cost and fuel consumption. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Yes, Mike, I read that article about the comparison as well. This was = clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the = rotary. One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately = only the aircraft - never did hear the cause. So I personally did not = get any indication reading the results that either of the pilots really = understood how to get the best out of their rotary. But, yes, the = powersport engine certainly looked nice - but at $30K it should {:>). =20 =3D0 A=20 One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 = air race on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races = because of the embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was = before his Renesis installation) beating lycomings that in some cases = had $10,000 of additional prep. =20 =20 Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the = racers), with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed = pitch wooden prop winning the air races. Didn't hear anything about it = in any of the aviation publications did you? - too embarrassing to all = those Lycoming owners. So they decided to cancel the air races to = preclude further embarrassment - Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to = insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) =20 =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com =20 http://www.andersonee.com =20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html = =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/ =20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW = =20 http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm = = =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM To: Rotary m otors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =20 There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s = powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo = RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary = powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile = out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while = the Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the = flight was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45. =20 My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the = numbers would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's = FADEC. No idea what it does with mixture. =20 Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries = being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is = going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll = volunteer to write the magazine article! =20 I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler than = the Lyc powered RVs! =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -=20 =20 Mark wrote: Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where they = are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc. =20 That seems to be the rule. I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor = with his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. Does he run = lean of peak? "Eh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I = hear the valves don't last as long; so I run it rich of peak. It's a = few more dollars, but cheap insurance" =20 Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I know of, and with = a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an issue. As long = as they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in my neck of the = woods, I'll keep burning mogas and pocketing the difference. =20 I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy = of the test,=3D2 0the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol - consistent = with what Mike said regarding CA fuels. So I got out my light and = little my mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; and inspected my = fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign of any softening of the surfaces; = no sign of anything happening. Nothing in the fuel filter. So far, so = good. So I'll keep runnin' with auto fuel - certainly when near my home base. = Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying - including the 6 - 8 = cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at = Walmart, mix =BE oz per ga.). =20 You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a = little different." As for that statement... I couldn't agree more, but = how do you quantify something like that? =20 I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation was = to do something a little better."=20 Al G =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 =20 ________________________________ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! = =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C99DEC.3C4C5D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I spoke with Powersport after the crash. Jim = had=20 installed a key switch that was also his power master switch. I believe = the key=20 switch failed.
 
Bobby

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:33 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20

Thanks for = the=20 additional info on Jim=92s crash, Bill. I was not aware that he had = broken his=20 arm.

 

 Hummm, = do you=20 recall exactly what failed in his system? =96 I=92m interested as I fly = with a=20 single battery.  I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years of never = using=20 the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took it out.  = I am=20 waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries that Bill Dube = is=20 developing =96 but, have to wait until the price comes down a bit=20 {:>).

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 = 11:37=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = economy -=20

 

Ed,
Jim Clark's crash in one = of the=20 PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused by an engine failure. His = problem=20 was a single battery electrical system which failed. Jim did break his = arm in=20 the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise. The plane was supposed to be = rebuildable. I=20 was very saddened by the Vans test BTW because they didn't let the = rotarys fly=20 an optimum flight plan but made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The = post=20 Everett Hatch Powersport EMS was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard = N4AVY=20 flight in Dan Checcoways 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very = comparable=20 in cost and fuel consumption.
Bill Jepson


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 = am
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -

Yes, Mike, =  I read=20 that article about the comparison as well.  This was clearly a case = of two=20 guys who had more money than knowledge of the rotary.  One = eventually had=20 an engine failure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft =96 never = did hear=20 the cause.  So I personally did not get any indication reading the = results=20 that either of the pilots really understood how to get the best out of = their=20 rotary.  But, yes, the powersport engine certainly looked nice =96 = but at=20 $30K it should {:>).

 

=3D0 A

One the other = hand, I=20 personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air race on two = occasions=20 before they decided to stop the air races because of the embarrassment = of his=20 junk yard engine (yes, this was before his Renesis installation) beating = lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of additional prep. =20

 

Here = Tracy was in a = rather=20 dirty airframe (compared to some of the racers), with automotive muffler = hanging=20 in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden prop winning the air = races. =20 Didn=92t hear anything about it in any of the aviation publications did = you? =20 =96 too embarrassing to all those Lycoming owners.   So they = decided to=20 cancel the air races to preclude further embarrassment =96 Yeah! I know = they=20 claimed it was due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right!=20 {:>)

 

 

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com<= /o:p>

http://www.andersonee.com<= /o:p>

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /FONT>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 On Behalf Of Mike=20 Wills
Sent: = Wednesday, March=20 04, 2009 10:50 PM
To: = Rotary m=20 otors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -

 

There was an article in = the May 2006=20 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries = compared to=20 two of Van's factory demo RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty=20 comparable. The rotary powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel = consumption=20 for a 160 mile out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 = gallons=20 while the Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of = the=20 flight was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and=20 5.45.

 

 My guess is that if = the pilots=20 could have aggressively leaned the numbers would be closer but the=20 rotaries were equipped with = Powersport's=20 FADEC. No idea what it does with=20 mixture.

 

 Anyway its articles = like this=20 that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries being gas hogs. Until we = generate some=20 numbers to contradict, this is going to be the perception. If you guys = generate=20 the numbers I'll volunteer to write the magazine=20 article!

 

 I should also = mention that the=20 Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler than the Lyc powered=20 RVs!

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Al = Gietzen=20

To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -

 

Mark=20 wrote:

Most are just plain scared to run their = engines lean=20 of peak where they are able to get close to the=20 "advertised" bsfc.

 

That = seems to be=20 the rule.  I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor with his = beautiful=20 Lancair Legacy with Continental 550.  Does he run lean of peak? = =93Eh-h,=20 well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear the valves = don=92t last=20 as long; so I run it rich of peak.  It=92s a few more dollars, = but cheap=20 insurance=94

 

Alcohol and possible vapor = lock are the only=20 issues I know of, and with a properly designed EFI fuel system, = vapor=20 lock isn't an issue.  As long as they don't start blending = alcohol=20 in the fuel in my neck of the woods, I'll keep burning mogas = and=20 pocketing the difference. 

I did the = ethanol=20 test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of the test,=3D2 = 0the fuel=20 had between 4 and 6% ethanol =96 consistent with what Mike said = regarding CA=20 fuels.  So I got out my light and little my mirror and stiff wire = with a=20 sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign of = any=20 softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing in = the fuel=20 filter. So far, so good.

So I=92ll = keep=20 runnin=92 with auto fuel =96 certainly when near my home base. =  Saves close=20 to $15 for every hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 cents/ga for = the 2-cycle=20 oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix =BE oz per=20 ga.).

 

You stated, "But really the biggest = motivation was to=20 do something a little different."  As for that statement... I = couldn't=20 agree more, but how do you quantify something like that? =20

I = like to put=20 it differently: "But really the biggest motivation = was to do=20 something a little better." 

Al=20 = G

=

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com<= /P>

 

A=20 Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy=20 steps!=20

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