X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.235] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3529428 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:40:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.235; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id g9so210122rvb.3 for ; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:39:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=fqveFvNeonn/uUxTDzphgEWdPUSdIRVvp+nWz35lBnI=; b=q/B/YHTkZUVNIuobF3fYpSN9UHvRLVgTiYl2RJwrYxOP86H7qMNtdZXwg8oloJM2tJ /+gFfCstU3tuB2NXXPisLlO4hxiNmDG6PBJqKZOYc5zZ6ZFd4KGALrTNfopMULYy6Yal q83/XolZ8PdMShS8snyGEF/5CAoLTfojE5ZZs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=I3k/izMr9IHHVvsZNkpnAaw6JiJ8qo/06OU/EboIP88TPinNGJQtJTEAxL54ZMRJg5 JM4LoTYy0g815OdUNVEeWKh3jM0+iTFO3HlsTWy/8Acyk6oZY4w7OKXRlMxYFnACUW7h dsw2PkADTOGK/iDeh+zXRli3+okAjcSY4GXPA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.127.1 with SMTP id z1mr1063986wac.3.1236296399655; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:39:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 15:39:59 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636458110bd1514046467af33 --001636458110bd1514046467af33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NTSB report is here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=3D20051011X01613&key=3D1 Readers should use their own judgment on accuracy of NTSB reports regarding experimental aircraft. But in this case, since the pilot survived, the investigation is probably fairly accurate. On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 3:27 PM, wrote: > Ed, > I live in central california and the crash was local so I heard the > preliminary info right away. The exact failure mode wasn't published. I > assume you could look it up on the FAA site. I would suggest you look at > getting a light-weight motorcycle battery as a back up. I plan on that fo= r > my system. Jim was trying to stretch to the airport and landed short. I > don't know how far out the system failed. I do know that the entire cockp= it > went dark, not just the engine. Could have shorted the main buss. > Bill Jepson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Anderson > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 2:33 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > > Thanks for the additional info on Jim=92s crash, Bill. I was not aware t= hat > he had broken his arm. > > Hummm, do you recall exactly what failed in his system? =96 I=92m intere= sted > as I fly with a single battery. I initially flew with 2 but after 8 year= s > of never using the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took = it > out. I am waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries that B= ill > Dube is developing =96 but, have to wait until the price comes down a bit > {:>). > > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *wrjjrs@aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:37 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > > Ed, > Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused b= y > an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system whi= ch > failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise. The > plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the Vans tes= t > BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight plan b ut m= ade > them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powersport EMS = was > also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checcoways 100 > mile race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fuel > consumption. > > Bill Jepson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Anderson > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > Yes, Mike, I read that article about the comparison as well. This was > clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the rotar= y. > One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately only the > aircraft =96 never did hear the cause. So I personally did not get any > indication reading the results that either of the pilots really understoo= d > how to get the best out of their rotary. But, yes, the powersport engine > certainly looked nice =96 but at $30K it should {:>). > > =3D0 A > One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 > air race on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races becau= se > of the embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was before his > Renesis installation) beating lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of > additional prep. > > Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the > racers), with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed > pitch wooden prop winning the air races. Didn=92t hear anything about it= in > any of the aviation publications did you? =96 too embarrassing to all th= ose > Lycoming owners. So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude > further embarrassment =96 Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to insuran= ce > consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) > > > > Ed > > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > *eanderson@carolina.rr.com* > *http://www.andersonee.com* > *http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html* > *http://www.flyrotary.com/* > *http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW* > *http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm* > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [*mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net*<= flyrotary@lancaironline.net?>] > *On Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM > *To:* Rotary m otors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > > There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s > powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo RV-8= s. > Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary powered > airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile out and > return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the Lyc > powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was > rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45. > > My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the > numbers would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's > FADEC. No idea what it does with mixture. > > Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries > being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is goi= ng > to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll volunteer to > write the magazine article! > > I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler tha= n > the Lyc powered RVs! > > Mike Wills > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* *Al Gietzen* > *To:* *Rotary motors in aircraft* > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Fuel economy - > > Mark wrote: > Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where they > are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc. > > That seems to be the rule. I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor > with his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. Does he run lean= of > peak? =93Eh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear the > valves don=92t last as long; so I run it rich of peak. It=92s a few more > dollars, but cheap insurance=94 > > Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I know of, and with = a > properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an issue. As long as > they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in my neck of the woods, I'= ll > keep burning mogas and pocketing the difference. > I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of > the test,=3D2 0the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol =96 consistent with = what > Mike said regarding CA fuels. So I got out my light and little my mirror > and stiff wire with a sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel > tanks. No sign of any softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything > happening. Nothing20in the fuel filter. So far, so good. > So I=92ll keep runnin=92 with auto fuel =96 certainly when near my home = base. > Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 ce= nts/ga > for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix = =BE oz > per ga.). > > You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a > little different." As for that statement... I couldn't agree more, but h= ow > do you quantify something like that? > > =3D0 D I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation > was to do something a little better." > Al G > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > *http://www.eset.com* > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > --001636458110bd1514046467af33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NTSB report is here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=3D2= 0051011X01613&key=3D1

Readers should use their own judgment = on accuracy of NTSB reports regarding experimental aircraft.=A0 But in this= case, since the pilot survived, the investigation is probably fairly accur= ate.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 3:27 PM, <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
Ed,
I live in central california and the crash was local so I heard the prelimi= nary info right away. The exact failure mode wasn't published. I assume= you could look it up on the FAA site. I would suggest you look at getting = a light-weight motorcycle battery as a back up. I plan on that for my syste= m. Jim was trying to stretch to the airport and landed short. I don't k= now how far out the system failed. I do know that the entire cockpit went d= ark, not just the engine. Could have shorted the main buss.

Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 2:33 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -

Thanks for the additional info o= n Jim=92s crash, Bill. I was not aware that he had broken his arm.
=A0
=A0Hummm, do you recall exactly = what failed in his system? =96 I=92m interested as I fly with a single batt= ery.=A0 I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years of never using the second= one but to help crank on a cold morning I took it out.=A0 I am waiting on = one of those super duper very tiny batteries that Bill Dube is developing = =96 but, have to wait until the price comes down a bit {:>).
=A0
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matth= ews, NC
From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 05, = 2009 11:37 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= uel economy -
=A0
Ed,
Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused= =A0by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system= which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt other= wise. The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the = Vans test BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight= plan b ut made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powerspor= t EMS was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checco= ways 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fue= l consumption.

Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -
Yes, Mike, =A0I read that articl= e about the comparison as well.=A0 This was clearly a case of two guys who = had more money than knowledge of the rotary.=A0 One eventually had an engin= e failure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft =96 never did hear th= e cause.=A0 So I personally did not get any indication reading the results = that either of the pilots really understood how to get the best out of thei= r rotary.=A0 But, yes, the powersport engine certainly looked nice =96 but = at $30K it should {:>).
=A0
=3D0 A
One the other hand, I personally= saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air race on two occasions before= they decided to stop the air races because of the embarrassment of his jun= k yard engine (yes, this was before his Renesis installation) beating lycom= ings that in some cases had $10,000 of additional prep.=A0
=A0
Here Tracy was in a rather dirty= airframe (compared to some of the racers), with automotive muffler hanging= in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden prop winning the air races.=A0= Didn=92t hear anything about it in any of the aviation publications did yo= u?=A0 =96 too embarrassing to all those Lycoming owners.=A0=A0 So they deci= ded to cancel the air races to preclude further embarrassment =96 Yeah! I k= now they claimed it was due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>= )
=A0
=A0
=A0
Ed
=A0
From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mail= to:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, March 04,= 2009 10:50 PM
To: Rotary m otors in airc= raft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= uel economy -
=A0
There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation= . Two RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's fac= tory demo RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotar= y powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile = out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the L= yc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was= rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45.
=A0
=A0My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively le= aned the numbers would be closer but the rotaries=A0were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. No idea what it does with mixtu= re.
=A0
=A0Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas a= bout rotaries being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict,= this is going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'= ;ll volunteer to write the magazine article!
=A0
=A0I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYY= YY cooler than the Lyc powered RVs!
=A0
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
So I=92ll keep runnin=92 wit= h auto fuel =96 certainly when near my home base. =A0Saves close to $15 for= every hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 cents/ga for the 2-cycle oi= l (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix =BE oz per ga.).
=A0
You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do somethin= g a little different."=A0 As for that statement... I couldn't agre= e more, but how do you quantify something like that?=A0
=3D0 D
I like to put it differently= : "But really the biggest motivation was to do something= a little better."=A0
Al G
=A0
=A0
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

--001636458110bd1514046467af33--