X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.101] (HELO imo-m13.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3529414 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:29:27 -0500 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-m13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.cf4.49c811a8 (37556) for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.145]) by cia-mb03.mx.aol.com (v123.3) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB035-5bb849b05fe4150; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:27:36 -0500 Received: from FWM-M25 (fwm-m25.webmail.aol.com [64.12.193.227]) by smtprly-da02.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA027-5bb849b05fe4150; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:27:32 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:27:31 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 66.253.96.220 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB6C01176E8278_144C_852_FWM-M25.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 41757-STANDARD Received: from 66.253.96.220 by FWM-M25.sysops.aol.com (64.12.193.227) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:27:31 -0500 Message-Id: <8CB6C011760345C-144C-459@FWM-M25.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB6C01176E8278_144C_852_FWM-M25.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Ed, I live in central california and the crash was local so I heard the prelimin= ary info right away. The exact failure mode wasn't published. I assume you c= ould look it up on the FAA site. I would suggest you look at getting a light= -weight motorcycle battery as a back up. I plan on that for my system. Jim w= as trying to stretch to the airport and landed short. I don't know how far o= ut the system failed. I do know that the entire cockpit went dark, not just=20= the engine. Could have shorted the main buss. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 2:33 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Thanks for the additional info on Jim=E2=80=99s crash, Bill. I was not aware= that he had broken his arm. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hummm, do you recall exactly what failed in his system? =E2=80=93 I= =E2=80=99m interested as I fly with a single battery.=C2=A0 I initially flew= with 2 but after 8 years of never using the second one but to help crank on= a cold morning I took it out.=C2=A0 I am waiting on one of those super dupe= r very tiny batteries that Bill Dube is developing =E2=80=93 but, have to wa= it until the price comes down a bit {:>). =C2=A0 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/R otorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of wrjjrs@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:37 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =C2=A0 Ed, Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused=C2= =A0by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system=20= which failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise.=20= The plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the Vans te= st BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight plan but ma= de them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powersport EMS=20= was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checcoways 10= 0 mile race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fuel consum= ption. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 Yes, Mike, =C2=A0I read that article about the comparison as well.=C2=A0 Thi= s was clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the ro= tary.=C2=A0 One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately o= nly the aircraft =E2=80=93 never did hear the cause.=C2=A0 So I personally d= id not get any indication reading the results that either of the pilots real= ly understood how to get the best out of their rotary.=C2=A0 But, yes,=3D2 0the powersport engine certainly looked nice =E2=80=93 but at $30K it should= {:>). =C2=A0 =3D0 A=20 One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air r= ace on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races because of th= e embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was before his Renesis in= stallation) beating lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of additional p= rep.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the racers),=20= with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden=20= prop winning the air races.=C2=A0 Didn=E2=80=99t hear anything about it in a= ny of the aviation publications did you?=C2=A0 =E2=80=93 too embarrassing to= all those Lycoming owners.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So they decided to cancel the air ra= ces to preclude further embarrassment =E2=80=93 Yeah! I know they claimed it= was due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ed =C2=A0 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM To: Rotary m otors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -=20 =3D0 A =C2=A0 There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s powe= red by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo RV-8s. Time= to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary powered airplanes we= re a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile out and return flight t= he rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the Lyc powered RVs burned 8.= 9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, L= ycs 5.05 and 5.45. =C2=A0 =C2=A0My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the numb= ers would be closer but the rotaries=C2=A0were equipped with Powersport's FA= DEC. No idea what it does with mixture. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries= being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is going= to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll volunteer to wr= ite the magazine article! =C2=A0 =C2=A0I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler tha= n the Lyc powered RVs! =C2=A0 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -=20 =C2=A0 Mark wrote: Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where they=20 are able to get close to the "advertised"=C2=A0bsfc. =C2=A0 That seems to be the rule. =C2=A0I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor=20= with his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. =C2=A0Does he run le= an of peak? =E2=80=9CEh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I= hear the valves don=E2=80=99t last as long; so I run it rich of peak.=C2= =A0 It=E2=80=99s a few more dollars, but cheap insurance=E2=80=9D =C2=A0 Alcohol=C2=A0and possible vapor lock=C2=A0are the only issues I know of, and= =C2=A0with a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an issue.= =C2=A0=C2=A0As long as they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel=C2=A0in= my neck of the woods, I'll keep=C2=A0burning mogas and pocketing the differ= ence.=C2=A0=20 I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of the= test,=3D2 0the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol =E2=80=93 consistent with=20= what Mike said regarding CA fuels. =C2=A0So I got out my light and little my= mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy=20= fuel tanks. No sign of any softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything ha= ppening. Nothing in the fuel filter. So far, so good. So I=E2=80=99ll keep runnin=E2=80=99 with auto fuel =E2=80=93 certainly when= near my home base. =C2=A0Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying =E2= =80=93 including the 6 =E2=80=93 8 cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2= -stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix =C2=BE oz per ga.). =C2=A0 You stated, " But really the biggest motivation was to do something a little different."= =C2=A0 As for that statement... I couldn't agree more, but how do you quanti= fy something like that?=C2=A0=20 I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation was to do s= omething a little better."=C2=A0 Al G =C2=A0 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature= database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =C2=A0 A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=20 ----------MB_8CB6C01176E8278_144C_852_FWM-M25.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Ed,
I live in central california and the crash was local so I heard the prelimin= ary info right away. The exact failure mode wasn't published. I assume you c= ould look it up on the FAA site. I would suggest you look at getting a light= -weight motorcycle battery as a back up. I plan on that for my system. Jim w= as trying to stretch to the airport and landed short. I don't know how far o= ut the system failed. I do know that the entire cockpit went dark, not just=20= the engine. Could have shorted the main buss.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 2:33 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -

Thanks for the additio= nal info on Jim=E2=80=99s crash, Bill. I was not aware that he had broken hi= s arm.
 
 Hummm, do you re= call exactly what failed in his system? =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m interested as=20= I fly with a single battery.  I initially flew with 2 but after 8 years= of never using the second one but to help crank on a cold morning I took it= out.  I am waiting on one of those super duper very tiny batteries tha= t Bill Dube is developing =E2=80=93 but, have to wait until the price comes=20= down a bit {:>).
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.co= m
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 20= 09 11:37 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fue= l economy -
 
Ed,
Jim Clark's crash in one of the PowerSport powered RV-8s was not caused = ;by an engine failure. His problem was a single battery electrical system wh= ich failed. Jim did break his arm in the crash but wasn't hurt otherwise. Th= e plane was supposed to be rebuildable. I was very saddened by the Vans test= BTW because they didn't let the rotarys fly an optimum flight plan b ut made them do exactly what the Lycs did. The post Everett Hatch Powersport= EMS was also far from optimum. The Dave Lenard N4AVY flight in Dan Checcowa= ys 100 mile race shows that the rotary is very comparable in cost and fuel c= onsumption.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson= @carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 5:47 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy -
Yes, Mike,  I rea= d that article about the comparison as well.  This was clearly a case o= f two guys who had more money than knowledge of the rotary.  One eventu= ally had an engine failure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft =E2= =80=93 never did hear the cause.  So I personally did not get any indic= ation reading the results that either of the pilots really understood how to= get the best out of their rotary.  But, yes, the powersport engine cer= tainly looked nice =E2=80=93 but at $30K it should {:>).
 
=3D0 A
One the other hand, I=20= personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air race on two occasio= ns before they decided to stop the air races because of the embarrassment of= his junk yard engine (yes, this was before his Renesis installation) beatin= g lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of additional prep.  =
 
Here Tracy was in a ra= ther dirty airframe (compared to some of the racers), with automotive muffle= r hanging in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden prop winning the air r= aces.  Didn=E2=80=99t hear anything about it in any of the aviation pub= lications did you?  =E2=80=93 too embarrassing to all those Lycoming ow= ners.   So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude furthe= r embarrassment =E2=80=93 Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to insurance=20= consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>)
 
 <= /div>
 
Ed
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net] On=20= Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2= 009 10:50 PM
To: Rotary m otors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fue= l economy -
 
There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Spo= rt Aviation. Two RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van= 's factory demo RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The=20= rotary powered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 m= ile out and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while th= e Lyc powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight w= as rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45.
 
 My guess is that if the pilots could have a= ggressively leaned the numbers would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. No idea what it does with=20= mixture.
 
 Anyway its articles like this that perpetua= te the ideas about rotaries being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers t= o contradict, this is going to be the perception. If you guys generate the n= umbers I'll volunteer to write the magazine article!
 
 I should also mention that the Powersport R= Vs looked WAYYYY cooler than the Lyc powered RVs!
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:= Al Gietzen
To: <= A title=3Dflyrotary@lancaironline.net href=3D"mailto:f lyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net">Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Sent:= Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM
Subject:<= FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> [FlyRotary] Fuel economy -
 
= Mark wrote:
Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of= peak where they are able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc.=
 
That seems to be t= he rule.  I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor with his beautiful= Lancair Legacy with Continental 550.  Does he run lean of peak? =E2= =80=9CEh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear the valve= s don=E2=80=99t last as long; so I run it rich of peak.  It=E2=80=99s a= few more dollars, but cheap insurance=E2=80=9D
 
Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only=20= issues I know of, and with a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor l= ock isn't an issue.  As long as they don't start blending alcohol=20= in the fuel in my neck of the woods, I'll keep burning mogas and p= ocketing the difference. 
I did the ethanol t= est on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of the test,=3D2 0the fue= l had between 4 and 6% ethanol =E2=80=93 consistent with what Mike said rega= rding CA fuels.  So I got out my light and little my mirror and stiff w= ire with a sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign= of any softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing20i= n the fuel filter. So far, so good.
So I=E2=80=99ll kee= p runnin=E2=80=99 with auto fuel =E2=80=93 certainly when near my home base.=  Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying =E2=80=93 including the 6= =E2=80=93 8 cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga= at Walmart, mix =C2=BE oz per ga.).
 
You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to d= o something a little different."  As for that statement... I couldn't a= gree more, but how do you quantify something like that?  =
=3D0 D
I like to put it di= fferently: "But really the biggest motivation was to do someth= ing a little better." 
Al G
 


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