X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.26] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3528990 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:25:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.26; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so80923qwh.25 for ; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kecvTwbB4fOIwwIS4TRhk26FKDhEBEjubgKZi11dAjk=; b=KL4EHLOki7CCqCOY49LRWaGQNu1WCoGzq+24/imFzcXXhulzeupKRAiYsdSqLNlKAf gJP/t//8lUSLMyC6vj43gZBhJaIUHOBQWWyV5v9WHNCWKuFBLmLtTbJDCI5GNJljVNkV xqGsacRS890yR9jTVz0pfFIpL3LLz9KNijENQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=HhrW89zclZSZlixPhOoW3MPYChwu/R+lau+aH2QQtn1tcz2zjqGDadY5Jh29tl35U/ VBgF3vyuvmresByapzET6cRmD7Kj7ZRXHp56eBt4NHgKKJIkml8Dl6NwqYV8GfUcwLBt Qzsd0QLWo5U917HR8lyNe0dNae3SLsTkfJKw0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.67.204 with SMTP id s12mr2400951qai.306.1236281074676; Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:24:34 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0903051124m7c8d12aeo317f25e3eb9e1d56@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cdeb84c77110464641e8c --0015175cdeb84c77110464641e8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And let's n0t forget about the 1991 Mazda victory at the 24 Hours of LeMans with their 26B. The big issue there, besides finishing the race, is fuel consumption. If the Mazda was a fuel hog, it never would have won this grueling race. Of course, it had 3 plugs per rotor for a 5% improvement. Mark On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Ed Anderson wrot= e: > Yes, Mike, I read that article about the comparison as well. This was > clearly a case of two guys who had more money than knowledge of the rotar= y. > One eventually had an engine failure which damaged fortunately only the > aircraft =96 never did hear the cause. So I personally did not get any > indication reading the results that either of the pilots really understoo= d > how to get the best out of their rotary. But, yes, the powersport engine > certainly looked nice =96 but at $30K it should {:>). > > > > One the other hand, I personally saw Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 ai= r > race on two occasions before they decided to stop the air races because o= f > the embarrassment of his junk yard engine (yes, this was before his Renes= is > installation) beating lycomings that in some cases had $10,000 of additio= nal > prep. > > > > Here Tracy was in a rather dirty airframe (compared to some of the racers= ), > with automotive muffler hanging in the slip stream and a fixed pitch wood= en > prop winning the air races. Didn=92t hear anything about it in any of th= e > aviation publications did you? =96 too embarrassing to all those Lycomin= g > owners. So they decided to cancel the air races to preclude further > embarrassment =96 Yeah! I know they claimed it was due to insurance > consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>) > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:50 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel economy - > > > > There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. Two RV-8s > powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factory demo RV-8= s. > Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary powered > airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile out and > return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the Lyc > powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was > rotaries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45. > > > > My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leaned the number= s > would be closer but the rotaries were equipped with Powersport's FADEC. N= o > idea what it does with mixture. > > > > Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas about rotaries > being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, this is goi= ng > to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll volunteer to > write the magazine article! > > > > I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY cooler than > the Lyc powered RVs! > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Al Gietzen > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Fuel economy - > > > > Mark wrote: > > Most are just plain scared to run their engines lean of peak where they a= re > able to get close to the "advertised" bsfc. > > > > That seems to be the rule. I chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor wi= th > his beautiful Lancair Legacy with Continental 550. Does he run lean of > peak? =93Eh-h, well, I tried it, but it sounded different, and I hear the > valves don=92t last as long; so I run it rich of peak. It=92s a few more > dollars, but cheap insurance=94 > > > > Alcohol and possible vapor lock are the only issues I know of, and with a > properly designed EFI fuel system, vapor lock isn't an issue. As long as > they don't start blending alcohol in the fuel in my neck of the woods, I'= ll > keep burning mogas and pocketing the difference. > > I did the ethanol test on my auto fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of > the test, the fuel had between 4 and 6% ethanol =96 consistent with what = Mike > said regarding CA fuels. So I got out my light and little my mirror and > stiff wire with a sharp end; and inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tank= s. > No sign of any softening of the surfaces; no sign of anything happening. > Nothing in the fuel filter. So far, so good. > > So I=92ll keep runnin=92 with auto fuel =96 certainly when near my home b= ase. > Saves close to $15 for every hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 ce= nts/ga > for the 2-cycle oil (SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix = =BE oz > per ga.). > > > > You stated, "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a litt= le > different." As for that statement... I couldn't agree more, but how do y= ou > quantify something like that? > > I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation was t= o > do something a little better." > > Al G > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > --0015175cdeb84c77110464641e8c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And let's n0t forget about the 1991 Mazda victory at the 24 Hours = of LeMans with their 26B.=A0 The big issue there, besides finishing the rac= e, is fuel consumption.=A0 If the Mazda was a fuel hog, it never would have= won this grueling race.=A0 Of course, it had 3 plugs per rotor for a 5% im= provement.=A0
=A0
Mark


=A0
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Yes, Mike, =A0I read that article a= bout the comparison as well.=A0 This was clearly a case of two guys who had= more money than knowledge of the rotary.=A0 One eventually had an engine f= ailure which damaged fortunately only the aircraft =96 never did hear the c= ause.=A0 So I personally did not get any indication reading the results tha= t either of the pilots really understood how to get the best out of their r= otary.=A0 But, yes, the powersport engine certainly looked nice =96 but at = $30K it should {:>).

=A0

One the other hand, I personally sa= w Tracy Crook win the Sun & Fun 100 air race on two occasions before th= ey decided to stop the air races because of the embarrassment of his junk y= ard engine (yes, this was before his Renesis installation) beating lycoming= s that in some cases had $10,000 of additional prep.=A0

=A0

Here Tracy was in a rather dirty ai= rframe (compared to some of the racers), with automotive muffler hanging in= the slip stream and a fixed pitch wooden prop winning the air races.=A0 Di= dn=92t hear anything about it in any of the aviation publications did you?= =A0 =96 too embarrassing to all those Lycoming owners.=A0=A0 So they decide= d to cancel the air races to preclude further embarrassment =96 Yeah! I kno= w they claimed it was due to insurance consideration, Yeah! Right! {:>)<= /span>

=A0

=A0

=A0

Ed

=A0

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, = 2009 10:50 PM=20


To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Fuel economy -

There was an article in the May 2006 issue of Sport Aviation. T= wo RV-8s powered by Powersport Rotaries compared to two of Van's factor= y demo RV-8s. Time to climb and speeds were pretty comparable. The rotary p= owered airplanes were a little heavier. Fuel consumption for a 160 mile out= and return flight the rotaries burned 12.9 and 11.5 gallons while the Lyc = powered RVs burned 8.9 and 9.5 gallons. Cruise portion of the flight was ro= taries 7.85 and 7.1, Lycs 5.05 and 5.45.

=A0My guess is that if the pilots could have aggressively leane= d the numbers would be closer but the rotaries=A0w= ere equipped with Powersport's FADEC. No idea what it does with mixture= .

=A0Anyway its articles like this that perpetuate the ideas abou= t rotaries being gas hogs. Until we generate some numbers to contradict, th= is is going to be the perception. If you guys generate the numbers I'll= volunteer to write the magazine article!

=A0I should also mention that the Powersport RVs looked WAYYYY = cooler than the Lyc powered RVs!

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesda= y, March 04, 2009 7:27 AM

Subject: [FlyR= otary] Fuel economy -

Mark wrote:

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Most are just plain scared to run their engi= nes lean of peak where they are able to get close to the "advertised&q= uot;=A0bsfc.

That seems to be the rule. =A0I= chatted yesterday with a hangar neighbor with his beautiful Lancair Legacy= with Continental 550. =A0Does he run lean of peak? =93Eh-h, well, I tried = it, but it sounded different, and I hear the valves don=92t last as long; s= o I run it rich of peak.=A0 It=92s a few more dollars, but cheap insurance= =94

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Alcohol=A0and possible vapor lock=A0are the = only issues I know of, and=A0with a properly designed EFI fuel system, vapo= r lock isn't an issue.=A0=A0As long as they don't start blending al= cohol in the fuel=A0in my neck of the woods, I'll keep=A0burning mogas = and pocketing the difference.=A0

I did the ethanol test on my au= to fuel yesterday. Within the accuracy of the test, the fuel had between 4 = and 6% ethanol =96 consistent with what Mike said regarding CA fuels. =A0So= I got out my light and little my mirror and stiff wire with a sharp end; a= nd inspected my fiberglass/EZpoxy fuel tanks. No sign of any softening of t= he surfaces; no sign of anything happening. Nothing in the fuel filter. So = far, so good.

So I=92ll keep runnin=92 with a= uto fuel =96 certainly when near my home base. =A0Saves close to $15 for ev= ery hour of flying =96 including the 6 =96 8 cents/ga for the 2-cycle oil (= SuperTech 2-stroke oil, $10.97/ga at Walmart, mix =BE oz per ga.).

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You stated, "But really the biggest mot= ivation was to do something a little different."=A0 As for that statem= ent... I couldn't agree more, but how do you quantify something like th= at?=A0

I like to put it differently: "But really the biggest motivation was to do something a = little better."=A0

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0

http://www.eset.com<= /a>


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