X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.188] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3523891 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:42:13 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.188; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (d220-236-255-172.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.255.172]) by mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n22KfQSM029597 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 07:41:27 +1100 Message-ID: <0B4B762541694CA79486035769F6572F@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] No oil pressure Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 06:41:27 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99BCB.13E0B650" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99BCB.13E0B650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, This end housing seems to be machined down about .5mm , is that the case = - if so, how does it affect the oil pump. George (down under) No luck today. > > I filled the line out of the engine just after the pump, then > cranked it over with the starter. I did get a little flow, but = not > very much. I reconnected the hose, and added components as I = went, > checking that I had oil flow after each. Still had flow after = the > cooler and just barely a trickle after the filter, where the oil > should go back into the engine. From this I am thinking either I > am not picking up enough oil, or the pump isn=92t pumping enough = oil. There should be some large amount of time between filling the hose and = trying to crank the engine. The object is that the oil in the hose will = flow backwards (very slowly) through the pump and back into the sump. = Keep adding oil to the hose to keep it full (highest head pressure), or = if you can rig up a way to add shop air pressure to that hose full of = oil it could shorten the process to a few seconds from an hour or so.=20 I would not use shop air to pressurize the block, as you might turn a = seal inside out.=20 You could stick the end of the hose in a glass jug or similar. Place = the end of a shop vac hose over the neck and pack a rag around the = junction. Turn on the shop vac until oil ( a lot of oil runs out of the = hose). Flow rate will not be great, but it will wet the pump.=20 You could fill the sump with oil to a level higher than the pump. Then = it would be charged just sitting still. I never used a gasket on the end of the pickup. I just lap the flange = dead flat and bolted it on. Then safety wire the bolts. No bug screen = and a nice bell shape on the end of the pipe.=20 If the pump has a prime it will put out a 2" high vertical column of = oil past the hose end at cranking speed.=20 Several things come to mind with the OMP removed. Is there a hole that = needs to be plugged with the OPM gone? I block off the oil supply to = the OMP at the gasket face with a bearing ball pressed into the oil = gallery.=20 And, now the ever popular "O" ring between the front iron and the = front cover. It is prone to failure on cold start ups. If it would just = blow out, there would just be a reduction in oil pressure. It does not = just blow out. The "O" ring extrudes out of one side of the junction to = release the pressure, and remains clamped in that position, providing a = big oil leak, that can only be repaired by removing the front cover, and = installing a new ring. I recommend a solid aluminum or copper ring that = will not fail. The front cover is quite flexible, and high oil pressure = on startup can push the cover off of the junction and allow the "O" ring = to escape.=20 The avarage 5th grade girl would not have engineered anything this = stupid, but you cannot tell the Japs anything. Later they place a Nylon = reinforced washer around the is junction, and used a fatter "O" ring. = The washer takes up space and improves clamping force around the land = area. Later still a stainless gasket fits around the junction.=20 If either the cover or the iron had this land area left proud of the = gasket surface even .010" or .015" this "O" ring would probably never = fail. The front cover gasket leaves this junction standing open a bit. = The hot street deal is to leave out the gasket to get the gap to close = up.=20 I blocked that junction with a thick aluminum disc, and took the oil = out the end of the gallery with a dash 10 tube to boss fitting. Do not = use a pipe thread in that gallery, it will crack open and ruin the iron. = Note the core support plug missing in this iron. Lynn E. Hanover =20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99BCB.13E0B650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Lynn,
This end housing seems to be machined = down about=20 .5mm , is that the case - if so, how does it affect the oil=20 pump.
George (down under)
  No luck today.
>
>     I filled = the=20 line out of the engine just after the pump, then
>  =   =20 cranked it over with the starter. I did get a little flow, but=20 not
>     very much. I reconnected the hose, and = added=20 components as I went,
>     checking that I had = oil flow=20 after each. Still had flow after the
>     cooler = and=20 just barely a trickle after the filter, where the oil
> =20    should go back into the engine. From this I am thinking = either=20 I
>     am not picking up enough oil, or the pump = isn=92t=20 pumping enough oil.
 
There should be some large amount of time between filling the = hose and=20 trying to crank the engine. The object is that the oil in the hose = will flow=20 backwards (very slowly) through the pump and back into the sump. Keep = adding=20 oil to the hose to keep it full (highest head pressure), or if you can = rig up=20 a way to add shop air pressure to that hose full of oil it could = shorten the=20 process to a few seconds from an hour or so.
 
I would not use shop air to pressurize the block, as you might = turn a=20 seal inside out.
 
You could stick the end of the hose in a glass jug or similar. = Place the=20 end of a shop vac hose over the neck and pack a rag around the = junction. Turn=20 on the shop vac until oil ( a lot of oil runs out of the hose).
 
Flow rate will not be great, but it will wet the pump.
 
You could fill the sump with oil to a level higher than the pump. = Then it=20 would be charged just sitting still.
 
I never used a gasket on the end of the pickup. I just lap the = flange=20 dead flat and bolted it on. Then safety wire the bolts. No bug screen = and a=20 nice bell shape on the end of the pipe.
 
If the pump has a prime it will put out a 2" high vertical column = of oil=20 past the hose end at cranking speed.
 
Several things come to mind with the OMP removed. Is there a hole = that=20 needs to be plugged with the OPM gone?  I block off the oil = supply to the=20 OMP at the gasket face with a bearing ball pressed into the oil = gallery.=20
 
And, now the ever popular "O" ring between the front iron and the = front=20 cover. It is prone to failure on cold start ups. If it would just blow = out,=20 there would just be a reduction in oil pressure. It does not just blow = out.=20 The "O" ring extrudes out of one side of the junction to release the = pressure,=20 and remains clamped in that position, providing a big oil leak, that = can only=20 be repaired by removing the front cover, and installing a new ring. I=20 recommend a solid aluminum or copper ring that will not fail. The = front cover=20 is quite flexible, and high oil pressure on startup can push the cover = off of=20 the junction and allow the "O" ring to escape. 
 
The avarage 5th grade girl would not have engineered anything = this=20 stupid, but you cannot tell the Japs anything. Later they place a = Nylon=20 reinforced washer around the is junction, and used a fatter "O" ring. = The=20 washer takes up space and improves clamping force around the land = area. Later=20 still a stainless gasket fits around the junction.
 
If either the cover or the iron had this land area left proud of = the=20 gasket surface even .010" or .015" this "O" ring would probably never = fail.=20 The front cover gasket leaves this junction standing open a bit. The = hot=20 street deal is to leave out the gasket to get the gap to close up. =
 
I blocked that junction with a thick aluminum disc, and took the = oil out=20 the end of the gallery with a dash 10 tube to boss fitting. Do not use = a pipe=20 thread in that gallery, it will crack open and ruin the = iron. 
 
Note the core support plug missing in this iron.
 
Lynn E. Hanover  
>

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Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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