X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.27] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3523389 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:00:20 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.27; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so1874250qwh.25 for ; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 07:59:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=83mQQGpl4KP95xcyyJcmY4NXzCGSQ7azyQlj3FQd3AM=; b=Mi85Mz9N5ebs9PDCbAyvkvmPDmKbW1rlFEI9CViwUadqpthDOPyL7370wEOm/vw9tr nA4QX794WgpT0OisZDOLrUCs/dd25boCOw8pz+6IrYIbw3pEwwZKzZpJjaw+Y6y6tp5U pFyKkMOgF/7hMAfQbQluH4lSWYjayezU15IxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=f4cURfhE/FTNOqVTLfU5SMfD329loAGhBCDlQfKuONYbmKhSpM+rbY/e0LPcJZDvh4 0XGRNlBm1ZN0u8NeDCbZeEEkNkzUtVq3/acDKSCKoFr+0TGgMFPk1ckjTcSLB6ILwX6b 2sqmWwcwFivDj9YcUAdqMcMYSlENiCUs2aZME= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.67.212 with SMTP id s20mr7699957qai.295.1236009583418; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 07:59:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:59:43 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0151693b66e59cf5 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0903020759g3f576b2v438ed76a860f478d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: No oil pressure From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce03048289f3b046424e824 --000e0ce03048289f3b046424e824 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From experience I can tell you that at engine speeds of around 4300 (low cruise speed at the time), a ruptured front cover O-ring will give you abou= t 35 psi. It failed on the way to Oshkosh in 1995 and I flew all the way bac= k with this condition. It was not a pleasant flight but the engine did not seem to suffer. Only 3 psi would be a different story. Tracy Crook On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Dale Rogers wrote: > Second source support for Lynn's advise: > > > http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/Technical/Front-Cover-Assembly/FrontCoverORin= gInstalled.Jpg.html > > Note the RH sidebar, indicating that failure of the o-ring will yield > oil pressure in the 0-25# range. > > Dale R. > > Lynn Hanover wrote: > >> No luck today. >> > >> > I filled the line out of the engine just after the pump, then >> > cranked it over with the starter. I did get a little flow, but not >> > very much. I reconnected the hose, and added components as I went, >> > checking that I had oil flow after each. Still had flow after the >> > cooler and just barely a trickle after the filter, where the oil >> > should go back into the engine. From this I am thinking either I >> > am not picking up enough oil, or the pump isn=92t pumping enough o= il. >> There should be some large amount of time between filling the hose and >> trying to crank the engine. The object is that the oil in the hose will = flow >> backwards (very slowly) through the pump and back into the sump. Keep ad= ding >> oil to the hose to keep it full (highest head pressure), or if you can r= ig >> up a way to add shop air pressure to that hose full of oil it could shor= ten >> the process to a few seconds from an hour or so. >> I would not use shop air to pressurize the block, as you might turn a >> seal inside out. >> You could stick the end of the hose in a glass jug or similar. Place th= e >> end of a shop vac hose over the neck and pack a rag around the junction. >> Turn on the shop vac until oil ( a lot of oil runs out of the hose). >> Flow rate will not be great, but it will wet the pump. >> You could fill the sump with oil to a level higher than the pump. Then = it >> would be charged just sitting still. >> I never used a gasket on the end of the pickup. I just lap the flange >> dead flat and bolted it on. Then safety wire the bolts. No bug screen an= d a >> nice bell shape on the end of the pipe. >> If the pump has a prime it will put out a 2" high vertical column of oi= l >> past the hose end at cranking speed. >> Several things come to mind with the OMP removed. Is there a hole that >> needs to be plugged with the OPM gone? I block off the oil supply to th= e >> OMP at the gasket face with a bearing ball pressed into the oil gallery. >> And, now the ever popular "O" ring between the front iron and the front >> cover. It is prone to failure on cold start ups. If it would just blow o= ut, >> there would just be a reduction in oil pressure. It does not just blow o= ut. >> The "O" ring extrudes out of one side of the junction to release the >> pressure, and remains clamped in that position, providing a big oil leak= , >> that can only be repaired by removing the front cover, and installing a = new >> ring. I recommend a solid aluminum or copper ring that will not fail. Th= e >> front cover is quite flexible, and high oil pressure on startup can push= the >> cover off of the junction and allow the "O" ring to escape. The avarage= 5th >> grade girl would not have engineered anything this stupid, but you canno= t >> tell the Japs anything. Later they place a Nylon reinforced washer aroun= d >> the is junction, and used a fatter "O" ring. The washer takes up space a= nd >> improves clamping force around the land area. Later still a stainless ga= sket >> fits around the junction. >> If either the cover or the iron had this land area left proud of the >> gasket surface even .010" or .015" this "O" ring would probably never fa= il. >> The front cover gasket leaves this junction standing open a bit. The hot >> street deal is to leave out the gasket to get the gap to close up. >> I blocked that junction with a thick aluminum disc, and took the oil ou= t >> the end of the gallery with a dash 10 tube to boss fitting. Do not use a >> pipe thread in that gallery, it will crack open and ruin the iron. Note= the >> core support plug missing in this iron. >> Lynn E. Hanover > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --000e0ce03048289f3b046424e824 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From experience I can tell you that at engine speeds of around 4300 (low cr= uise speed at the time), a ruptured front cover O-ring will give you about = 35 psi.=A0 It failed on the way to Oshkosh in 1995 and I flew all the way b= ack with this condition.=A0 It was not a pleasant flight but the engine did= not seem to suffer.=A0 Only 3 psi would be a different story.

Tracy Crook

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:= 57 AM, Dale Rogers <= dale.r@cox.net> wrote:
Second source support for Lynn's advise:

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v= /Technical/Front-Cover-Assembly/FrontCoverORingInstalled.Jpg.html

Note the RH sidebar, indicating that failure of the o-ring will yield
oil pressure in the 0-25# range.

Dale R.

Lynn Hanover wrote:
<= div class=3D"Wj3C7c"> =A0No luck today.
>
> =A0 =A0 I filled the line out of the engine just after the pump, then<= br> > =A0 =A0 cranked it over with the starter. I did get a little flow, but= not
> =A0 =A0 very much. I reconnected the hose, and added components as I w= ent,
> =A0 =A0 checking that I had oil flow after each. Still had flow after = the
> =A0 =A0 cooler and just barely a trickle after the filter, where the o= il
> =A0 =A0 should go back into the engine. From this I am thinking either= I
> =A0 =A0 am not picking up enough oil, or the pump isn=92t pumping enou= gh oil.
=A0There should be some large amount of time between filling the hose and t= rying to crank the engine. The object is that the oil in the hose will flow= backwards (very slowly) through the pump and back into the sump. Keep addi= ng oil to the hose to keep it full (highest head pressure), or if you can r= ig up a way to add shop air pressure to that hose full of oil it could shor= ten the process to a few seconds from an hour or so.
=A0I would not use shop air to pressurize the block, as you might turn a se= al inside out.
=A0You could stick the end of the hose in a glass jug or similar. Place the= end of a shop vac hose over the neck and pack a rag around the junction. T= urn on the shop vac until oil ( a lot of oil runs out of the hose).
=A0Flow rate will not be great, but it will wet the pump.
=A0You could fill the sump with oil to a level higher than the pump. Then i= t would be charged just sitting still.
=A0I never used a gasket on the end of the pickup. I just lap the flange de= ad flat and bolted it on. Then safety wire the bolts. No bug screen and a n= ice bell shape on the end of the pipe.
=A0If the pump has a prime it will put out a 2" high vertical column o= f oil past the hose end at cranking speed.
=A0Several things come to mind with the OMP removed. Is there a hole that n= eeds to be plugged with the OPM gone? =A0I block off the oil supply to the = OMP at the gasket face with a bearing ball pressed into the oil gallery. =A0And, now the ever popular "O" ring between the front iron and = the front cover. It is prone to failure on cold start ups. If it would just= blow out, there would just be a reduction in oil pressure. It does not jus= t blow out. The "O" ring extrudes out of one side of the junction= to release the pressure, and remains clamped in that position, providing a= big oil leak, that can only be repaired by removing the front cover, and i= nstalling a new ring. I recommend a solid aluminum or copper ring that will= not fail. The front cover is quite flexible, and high oil pressure on star= tup can push the cover off of the junction and allow the "O" ring= to escape. =A0The avarage 5th grade girl would not have engineered anythin= g this stupid, but you cannot tell the Japs anything. Later they place a Ny= lon reinforced washer around the is junction, and used a fatter "O&quo= t; ring. The washer takes up space and improves clamping force around the l= and area. Later still a stainless gasket fits around the junction.
=A0If either the cover or the iron had this land area left proud of the gas= ket surface even .010" or .015" this "O" ring would pro= bably never fail. The front cover gasket leaves this junction standing open= a bit. The hot street deal is to leave out the gasket to get the gap to cl= ose up.
=A0I blocked that junction with a thick aluminum disc, and took the oil out= the end of the gallery with a dash 10 tube to boss fitting. Do not use a p= ipe thread in that gallery, it will crack open and ruin the iron. =A0Note t= he core support plug missing in this iron.
=A0Lynn E. Hanover =A0>

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html
=A0


--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html

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