X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.27] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3520064 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:57:36 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.27; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so1207299qwh.25 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:57:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=j5IJEIPkbGFam6T1z7zuAuJ9QFHgASn/TYw08f/9Pg0=; b=ABkaeZc33JqOPnlC9uAq4Dc9P1WWT6U+6JMtd80PKjrIgWub5nUlxDYP+zTKf30Vgz ZLjpe/pXzHdbpzvU2NiZuPLiGyZ6y8yzLyXiHsHsJqJCcvnf3ExhGF6jZeP/ndN7Xq1t AtIj2HrhIurlTZpXtqzMl2sSiYbQi0DPlmXRY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=uDnWXxTBE+wA0gfjHl3qVP3dE2/ldA62JKI30V88AIj6TqoRO8/iC42wFeaXNrwQ2j r3a1l9eTZlizQ/YRauuwN1ZS+MUIWsAY4jP9wP/G6i5jlVoVrCWK7VwY+jOVFJMlS87v mR3PRZki8lYczxGIzUTv8zLKCPWNaOxgcF98U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.2.211 with SMTP id 19mr4798252qak.340.1235768221454; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:57:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:57:01 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 298cea4ac39d2c47 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0902271257k10f98647x8446631914b9d6f3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: ethanol From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb83cdd54400463ecb5b9 --0015175cb83cdd54400463ecb5b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like a good setup Mike. I'm surprised at the 300 GPH rating for the sintered bronze filter though. It must be a biggie but that's OK. They are usually restrictive at that flow rate so I use SS screen type before the pump. Not as fine a filter as sintered bronze but very low restriction. Tracy On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Mike Wills wrote: > Before my airplane hobby I was a hot-rodder and one of the early adopters > of EFI on a Chevy powered Datsun Z. I learned the hard way that EFI pumps > dont like to draw fuel over great distances. On the RV-4 the pumps are just > inside the fuselage at the wingroot. The only possible way to make the path > shorter would be to put them between the wing and fuselage and I looked at > doing that but couldnt make the plumbing work. When I switch on the pump, I > see fuel pressure instantly on the gauge. I can hear the pump prime and pick > up fuel - its a fraction of a second. > > I use filters between the tank and pumps that have a sintered bronze > element. They are rated @ 300 GPH and can be disassembled for cleaning. The > first time I found contamination each filter contained about 1/8 tsp of junk > in it. > > Thanks for the idea about the hose possibly being affected and returned to > the tank Mark. Earls isnt real specific about what the hose is made of. May > be time to do some testing. > > Al, I dont routinely test but every sample I have tested from various gas > stations around the county has had ethanol in it. I found a number of > websites that indicated there is NO MTBE in CA gas anymore and that all gas > sold here contains a minimum of approx 6% ethanol as an oxygenate. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Tracy Crook > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2009 7:43 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: ethanol > > FWIW, > Possible source of the 'black flakes' is fuel pump impeller pieces. When > these pumps run dry their lifetime is measured in minutes. The impellers > will abraid and shed small pieces. Insure that the path from tank to pump > is down hill or at least level with the fuel and there are no restrictive > filters or other obstacles in this path. I don't even like to see boost > pumps there because there is a significant drop in pressure across their > check valves. > > Tracy > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > >> Well things seem a little slow today so how about re-opening a can of >> worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding ethanol in fuel. >> Frankly at the time I didnt know much about the subject but have been >> reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel. >> >> At the time I think it was Al G. who said so far he hasnt found any auto >> fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologize. So far I havent >> found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from my reading ALL >> auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now. >> >> Looks like the concerns are: >> 1) Vapor lock >> 2) Potential corrosion of aluminum components in the fuel system. >> 3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?) components in the fuel system. >> 4) Water. >> 5) Dislodging contaminants from previously used fuels. >> >> I believe (hope?) the vapor lock issues to be a non-problem with our EFI >> systems. The potential corrosion issues seem to be overstated for ethanol, >> clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in my airplane is Earls >> Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I >> assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I assume the >> injectors themselves are safe? I thought Pro-Seal is also supposed to be >> ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with dislodged >> contaminants. >> >> This leaves the issue of ethanol's affinity for water. Other than always >> keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the tank and condensation any >> ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it doesnt happen? >> >> I bring this subject up because for the second time since I've started >> flying I've found a little contamination during my pre-flight when sumping >> the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized black flakes in >> it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The first >> time I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and cleaned >> them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure nothing bad >> got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from when >> they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro Seal. >> >> Any comments on ethanol in general or my fuel contamination issue are >> welcome. >> >> Mike Wills >> RV-4 N144MW >> > > --0015175cb83cdd54400463ecb5b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like a good setup Mike.
=A0 I'm surprised at the 300 GPH rati= ng for the sintered bronze filter though.=A0 It must be a biggie but that&#= 39;s OK.=A0 They are usually restrictive at that flow rate so I use SS scre= en type before the pump.=A0 Not as fine a filter as sintered bronze but ver= y low restriction.

Tracy

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:36 = AM, Mike Wills <rv= -4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Before my airplane hobby I was a hot-r= odder and one=20 of the early adopters of EFI on a Chevy powered Datsun Z. I learned the har= d way=20 that EFI pumps dont like to draw fuel over great distances. On the RV-4 the= =20 pumps are just inside the fuselage at the=A0wingroot. The only possible way= =20 to make the path shorter would be to put them between the wing and fuselage= and=20 I looked at doing that but couldnt make the plumbing work. When I switch on= the=20 pump, I see fuel pressure instantly on the gauge. I can hear the pump prime= and=20 pick up fuel - its a fraction of a second.
=A0
I use filters between the tank and pum= ps that have=20 a sintered bronze element. They are rated @ 300 GPH and can be disassembled= for=20 cleaning. The first time I found contamination each filter contained about = 1/8=20 tsp of junk in it.
=A0
Thanks for the idea about the hose pos= sibly being=20 affected and returned to the tank Mark. Earls isnt real specific about what= the=20 hose is made of. May be time to do some testing.
=A0
Al, I dont routinely test but every sa= mple I have=20 tested from various gas stations around the county has had ethanol in it. I= =20 found a number of websites that indicated there is NO MTBE in CA gas anymor= e and=20 that all gas sold here contains a minimum of approx 6% ethanol as an=20 oxygenate.
=A0
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:= 43=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: ethanol

FWIW,
Possible source of the 'black flakes'=A0 = is fuel=20 pump impeller pieces.=A0 When these pumps run dry their lifetime is=20 measured in minutes.=A0 The impellers will abraid and shed small=20 pieces.=A0 Insure that the path from tank to pump is down hill or at leas= t=20 level with the fuel and there are no restrictive filters or other obstacl= es in=20 this path.=A0 I don't even like to see boost pumps there because ther= e is a=20 significant drop in pressure across their check=20 valves.

Tracy


On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Mike Wills <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Well things seem a little slow tod= ay so how=20 about re-opening a can of worms? We had a brief discussion a while back= =20 regarding ethanol in fuel. Frankly at the time I didnt know much about = the=20 subject but have been reading a little since I'm burning auto=20 fuel.
=A0
At the time I think it was Al G. w= ho said so=20 far he hasnt found any auto fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wron= g I=20 apologize. So far I havent found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I= can=20 tell from my reading ALL auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at= 10%=20 now.
=A0
Looks like the concerns are:
1) Vapor lock
2) Potential corrosion of aluminum= components=20 in the fuel system.
3) Deterioration of rubber (and ot= her?)=20 components in the fuel system.
4) Water.
5) Dislodging contaminants from pr= eviously used=20 fuels.
=A0
I believe (hope?)=A0the vapor lock= issues to=20 be a non-problem with our EFI systems. The potential corrosion=20 issues=A0seem to be overstated for ethanol, clearly a problem with=20 methanol. All the hose in my airplane is Earls Perform-O-Flex which=20 according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I assume th= ey mean=20 neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I assume the injectors themsel= ves=20 are safe?=A0I thought=A0Pro-Seal is also supposed to be ethanol safe.= =20 My airplane is new so there should be no issue with dislodged=20 contaminants.
=A0
This leaves the issue of ethanol&#= 39;s affinity for=20 water. Other than always keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in= the=20 tank and condensation any ideas on how to deal with this other than hop= ing=20 it doesnt happen?
=A0
I bring this subject up because fo= r the second=20 time since I've started flying I've found a little contaminatio= n during my=20 pre-flight when sumping the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pe= pper=20 sized black flakes in it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between = the=20 fingers. The first time=A0I completely drained the tanks and pulled the= =20 fuel filters and cleaned them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. F= unnel=20 to make sure nothing bad got added. So whatever this is, its residual j= unk=20 in the tanks from when they were built. Or its something (like ethanol)= =20 attacking the Pro Seal.
=A0
Any comments on ethanol in general= or my fuel=20 contamination issue are welcome.
=A0
Mike Wills
RV-4=20 N144MW


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