X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3519411 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:41:57 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.55; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-146-124-231.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.124.231]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20090227164120H05002h6rme>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:41:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.124.231] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: ethanol Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:41:23 -0500 Message-ID: <790206A1BEF6488FBC7E9B1AA72A9195@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C998D0.518C79B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcmY8iu7YepusmEvQzyLuuG2K/KXUQAB0vWA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C998D0.518C79B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Black Flakes.. If you made up your own hoses, the rubber crumbles when you cut the hose and could also abrade when you install the hose ends. If you don't properly wash them out before they are installed, this material could flush through the system and plug your filters, injectors, or wind up in the tank if you have a return system. Don't ask me how I know. :>) Anybody know a good way to flush out injectors? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: ethanol FWIW, Possible source of the 'black flakes' is fuel pump impeller pieces. When these pumps run dry their lifetime is measured in minutes. The impellers will abrade and shed small pieces. Insure that the path from tank to pump is down hill or at least level with the fuel and there are no restrictive filters or other obstacles in this path. I don't even like to see boost pumps there because there is a significant drop in pressure across their check valves. Tracy On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Well things seem a little slow today so how about re-opening a can of worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding ethanol in fuel. Frankly at the time I didn't know much about the subject but have been reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel. At the time I think it was Al G. who said so far he hasn't found any auto fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologize. So far I haven't found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from my reading ALL auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now. Looks like the concerns are: 1) Vapor lock 2) Potential corrosion of aluminum components in the fuel system. 3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?) components in the fuel system. 4) Water. 5) Dislodging contaminants from previously used fuels. I believe (hope?) the vapor lock issues to be a non-problem with our EFI systems. The potential corrosion issues seem to be overstated for ethanol, clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in my airplane is Earls Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I assume the injectors themselves are safe? I thought Pro-Seal is also supposed to be ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with dislodged contaminants. This leaves the issue of ethanol's affinity for water. Other than always keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the tank and condensation any ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it doesn't happen? I bring this subject up because for the second time since I've started flying I've found a little contamination during my pre-flight when sumping the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized black flakes in it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The first time I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and cleaned them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure nothing bad got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from when they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro Seal. Any comments on ethanol in general or my fuel contamination issue are welcome. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C998D0.518C79B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Black Flakes..

If you made up your own hoses, the rubber crumbles when you cut = the hose and could also abrade when you install the hose ends.  If you = don’t properly wash them out before they are installed, this material could = flush through the system and plug your filters, injectors, or wind up in the = tank if you have a return system.   Don’t ask me how I = know.  :>)

 

Anybody know a good way to flush out = injectors?

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, February = 27, 2009 10:43 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = ethanol

FWIW,
Possible source of the 'black flakes'  is fuel pump impeller = pieces.  When these pumps run dry their lifetime is measured in minutes.  = The impellers will abrade and shed small pieces.  Insure that the path = from tank to pump is down hill or at least level with the fuel and there are = no restrictive filters or other obstacles in this path.  I don't even = like to see boost pumps there because there is a significant drop in pressure = across their check valves.

Tracy

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:

Well things seem a little slow today so how about = re-opening a can of worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding ethanol = in fuel. Frankly at the time I didn’t know much about the subject but = have been reading a little since I'm burning auto = fuel.

 

At the time I think it was Al G. who said so far he = hasn’t found any auto fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologize. = So far I haven’t found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell = from my reading ALL auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% = now.

 

Looks like the concerns = are:

1) Vapor lock

2) Potential corrosion of aluminum components in the = fuel system.

3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?) components in = the fuel system.

4) Water.

5) Dislodging contaminants from previously used = fuels.

 

I believe (hope?) the vapor lock issues to be a non-problem with our EFI systems. The potential corrosion = issues seem to be overstated for ethanol, clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose = in my airplane is Earls Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I assume they mean neoprene which I gather = is ethanol safe. I assume the injectors themselves are safe? I thought Pro-Seal is also supposed to be ethanol safe. My airplane = is new so there should be no issue with dislodged = contaminants.

 

This leaves the issue of ethanol's affinity for = water. Other than always keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the tank and condensation any ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it = doesn’t happen?

 

I bring this subject up because for the second time = since I've started flying I've found a little contamination during my = pre-flight when sumping the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized black = flakes in it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The = first time I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and cleaned them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure nothing bad got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the = tanks from when they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro = Seal.

 

Any comments on ethanol in general or my fuel = contamination issue are welcome.

 

Mike = Wills

RV-4 = N144MW

 

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