X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.238] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3518784 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:48:10 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.238; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so924809rvf.7 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:47:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=d7cuvdkl5d7WNj790ghwdhYsax+/aNYtq7DxPQ7yXoM=; b=N3arNWBeFwGngdzlSCAjuwqxNjphpMqVzdhpBmETLDlWjQ6dBxLOI5ZhnT+NPmvRAL DPkAxO7UPpKrx0K9wk8VytOsJP9FweoH0O+ToIfft+SbD16uWpe8WnRfehhsJATUDwy3 KBrSrilCM8go0ltdiGteeHo7tNqaM0O8ZATUs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Ia8fzY3p/bcSX4+d7XT+0AYYL8O+J+MoLsRB1sYirgJ8UxjG3qjKZGmV0jXEhe0hxh qdzW5czNrZ67KFhfbXLHCNs54nBMjDTAImtA0b2ouoGpcnSwVp7fz8z44FxMKNCxD0xr TSy8gSC2uB7YVld+L6nuDejukqH0dCqIuMyrY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.144.1 with SMTP id r1mr989433rvd.271.1235710055789; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:47:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:47:35 -0800 Message-ID: <1c23473f0902262047q7d987893x4be054534e294eb4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] ethanol From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd28aa8ebb4f20463df2a9c --000e0cd28aa8ebb4f20463df2a9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, After 4 years of continuous use of mogas with ethanol, I have found no issues. You are right about everything you said. Vapor lock is more or less impossible with our fuel systems. Aluminum corrosion does not appear to be significant. Most of the components are automotive and should work with ethanol fuel just like our cars. I have found no evidence that my proseal is deteriorating. Of course, plastice airplanes are a different story. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Well things seem a little slow today so how about re-opening a can of > worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding ethanol in fuel. > Frankly at the time I didnt know much about the subject but have been > reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel. > > At the time I think it was Al G. who said so far he hasnt found any auto > fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologize. So far I havent > found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from my reading ALL > auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now. > > Looks like the concerns are: > 1) Vapor lock > 2) Potential corrosion of aluminum components in the fuel system. > 3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?) components in the fuel system. > 4) Water. > 5) Dislodging contaminants from previously used fuels. > > I believe (hope?) the vapor lock issues to be a non-problem with our EFI > systems. The potential corrosion issues seem to be overstated for ethanol, > clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in my airplane is Earls > Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I > assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I assume the > injectors themselves are safe? I thought Pro-Seal is also supposed to be > ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with dislodged > contaminants. > > This leaves the issue of ethanol's affinity for water. Other than always > keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the tank and condensation any > ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it doesnt happen? > > I bring this subject up because for the second time since I've started > flying I've found a little contamination during my pre-flight when sumping > the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized black flakes in > it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The first > time I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and cleaned > them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure nothing bad > got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from when > they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro Seal. > > Any comments on ethanol in general or my fuel contamination issue are > welcome. > > Mike Wills > RV-4 N144MW > --000e0cd28aa8ebb4f20463df2a9c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike,

After 4 years of continuous use of mogas with ethanol, I ha= ve found no issues.=A0 You are right about everything you said.=A0 Vapor lo= ck is more or less impossible with our fuel systems.=A0 Aluminum corrosion = does not appear to be significant.=A0 Most of the components are automotive= and should work with ethanol fuel just like our cars.=A0 I have found no e= vidence that my proseal is deteriorating.

Of course, plastice airplanes are a different story.
--
David Le= onard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net<= /a>> wrote:
Well things seem a little slow today s= o how about=20 re-opening a can of worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding= =20 ethanol in fuel. Frankly at the time I didnt know much about the subject bu= t=20 have been reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel.
=A0
At the time I think it was Al G. who s= aid so far he=20 hasnt found any auto fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologi= ze.=20 So far I havent found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from = my=20 reading ALL auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now.<= /div>
=A0
Looks like the concerns are:
1) Vapor lock
2) Potential corrosion of aluminum com= ponents in=20 the fuel system.
3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?= ) components=20 in the fuel system.
4) Water.
5) Dislodging contaminants from previo= usly used=20 fuels.
=A0
I believe (hope?)=A0the vapor lock iss= ues to be=20 a non-problem with our EFI systems. The potential corrosion issues=A0seem t= o=20 be overstated for ethanol, clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in= my=20 airplane is Earls Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "= synthetic=20 rubber". I assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I= assume=20 the injectors themselves are safe?=A0I thought=A0Pro-Seal is also supposed= =20 to be ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with=20 dislodged contaminants.
=A0
This leaves the issue of ethanol's= affinity for=20 water. Other than always keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the= tank=20 and condensation any ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it do= esnt=20 happen?
=A0
I bring this subject up because for th= e second time=20 since I've started flying I've found a little contamination during = my pre-flight=20 when sumping the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized blac= k=20 flakes in it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The= =20 first time=A0I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and= =20 cleaned them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure no= thing=20 bad got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from whe= n=20 they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro=20 Seal.
=A0
Any comments on ethanol in general or = my fuel=20 contamination issue are welcome.
=A0
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW




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