X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.99] (HELO imo-m11.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3453678 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:49 -0500 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-m11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.c64.3ddcea1a (37544) for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.144]) by cia-mb02.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB025-5baf497e275c13e; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:08 -0500 Received: from MBLK-M32 (mblk-m32.mblk.aol.com [64.12.136.76]) by smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA016-5baf497e275c13e; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:00 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:00 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 66.253.96.220 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB4E1200D5498E_E0C_108D_MBLK-M32.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 41095-STANDARD Received: from 66.253.96.220 by MBLK-M32.sysops.aol.com (64.12.136.76) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:00 -0500 Message-Id: <8CB4E1200C95DD6-E0C-7FF@MBLK-M32.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB4E1200D5498E_E0C_108D_MBLK-M32.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Guys, If he is getting coolant around the o-rings at those temps there must be a p= roblem. The cars have 185=C2=B0F thermostats for crying out loud. 220 for a=20= short time should NOT kill the o-rings. I would check to be sure you hadn't=20= broken an engine stud. (Or two!) Often not replaced at rebuild they can brea= k. Bill Jepson=C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:41 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Al,=20 =C2=A0 I would like to agree with you that the temps Chris reported are not very li= kely to have harmed the o-rings, but if that is the case, why would he be ge= tting coolant into both chambers?=C2=A0=C2=A0What else could cause that to h= appen simultaneously?=C2=A0 My guess is that the o-rings got too hot and are= now leaking.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark S.=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: Chris; =C2=A0 For every challenge we overcome, we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you'= re having lots of satisfaction opportunities! =C2=A0 All other things being normal, my experience would suggest that getting to 2= 10 or 220 should not be a problem.=C2=A0 During initial testing, I had run m= y 20B temps to those levels a number of times. No issue.=20 My concern would be whether or not the air was purged =E2=80=93 or that the=20= temp read out was not correct.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 My cooling system bl eeds out well, but it does take at least one run up to temp, and then some a= dded coolant.=C2=A0 On one occasion I had pumped air into the system to pres= surize for leak test, and then forgot to purge that out before making some '= tuning' runs on the ground. =C2=A0Before the temp read over 200, I heard the= thumping sound of boiling. Yikes! =C2=A0Apparently air at the temp pickup.=20= Even that did not result in any coolant leaks in the housings. =C2=A0 I recalibrated the temp channel on the EM2, had to change from the default n= umbers to get a correct reading.=C2=A0 If you haven't already checked calibr= ation, it may be worth it. The thermister is non-linear, so calibrate to a l= ow end temp of about 130, and high end at 210 =E2=80=93 or whatever your loc= al boiling point is. Using a measured temp water container is most accurate.= =C2=A0 I then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) on a spot of flat black paint=20= at the pump outlet to double check. =C2=A0 Hang in there, buddy! =C2=A0 Al G =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh =C2=A0 Perhaps one day I will post with good news.=C2=A0 However, today is not the=20= day. I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof of=20= concept mode" to "flight prep mode".=C2=A0 The engine and wires have been my= focus since I had=3D2 0to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.=C2=A0 (B= TW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that la= ter). =C2=A0 Since I have=C2=A0seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in t= he engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I w= as gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio p= anel today.=C2=A0 I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy=20= to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I=20= would send it all in now while I tied up loose ends).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run the e= ngine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar and=20= crank her up.=C2=A0 She started up as expected.=C2=A0 I taxied around a bit=20= making my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart".=C2=A0 I shut down=20= after a few minutes as the temps started to rise. =C2=A0 I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it.=C2=A0 Hmmm, not start= ing.=C2=A0 Hmmmm.=C2=A0 Let is sit a bit more.=C2=A0 Try again. Still no joy= .=C2=A0 I sat there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to st= art a second time the last couple of times I ran the engine.=C2=A0 UHOH!=C2= =A0 When I had to build this engine it was premised by the old engine not wa= nting to start after an initial run.=C2=A0The first engine got too hot and w= as leaking coolant into the rotor hou sings.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirt= y liquid at the exhaust tip.=C2=A0 Damn.=C2=A0 Ok, take a deeper breath and=20= be a man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug and=20= take a look.=C2=A0 Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and i= t had a bit of liquid.=C2=A0 I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew o= ut the hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it!=C2=A0 Coolant in the housing.=C2=A0 C= hecked the front rotor and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. =C2=A0 Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I was i= n a serious learning curve.=C2=A0 I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with=20= a prop=C2=A0and without proper sensors.=C2=A0 I really should have been surp= rised if I didn't fry it.=C2=A0 So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to b= uy new housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially= a new engine.=C2=A0 I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too ho= t.=C2=A0 I would shut it down if it got between 210 and 220.=C2=A0 ONE TIME=20= it got to about 225 degrees before I shut it down and that was only for a ma= tter of couple of seconds.=C2=A0 None the less something has happened to cau= se coolant to enter the rotor housings again.=C2=A0 I used what were adverti= sed as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a=C2= =A0thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website).=C2=A0 It is my underst= anding if that if the engine=20 gets too hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through.=C2=A0 Oh, I=20= sooooooo hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared.=C2=A0 Al= l the hardware is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium str= eet port...I really was developing some power..... =C2=A0 I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation busin= ess with R&D as a major factor as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7= =C2=A0and he and I are gonna look into what I missed.=C2=A0 Verify that my s= ensors are working properly, check the cooling system for proper flow again=20= among other things.=C2=A0 Very frustrating though.=C2=A0 I am, however,=C2= =A0getting very good at removing my engine from the plane.=C2=A0 I had it of= f and sitting on the work table in only about an hour.=C2=A0 I am not gonna=20= crack the engine open yet until I can get Blaine over for some joint brain d= uty.=C2=A0 On a positive note, there are a number of things at the "firewall= aft" that I need to address, this is giving me the perfect opportunity to d= o so.=C2=A0 They will be much easier to improve with the engine off. =C2=A0 Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the why. =C2=A0 And, as to another "why".=C2=A0 I may have determined why my Jeffco failed i= n my fuel strakes.=C2=A0 As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the=20= old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months= ago due to the Jeffco peeling away.=C2=A0 Well,=20 as I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as to b= e able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco b= ottles.=C2=A0 Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9= 700.=C2=A0 Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 970= 0.=C2=A0 I remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent= the wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700.=C2=A0 THIS time I ordered n= ew Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my stra= kes, however, in the new order=C2=A0 BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were la= beled 9700.=C2=A0 My current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&S s= upplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was the= correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the pr= oper number.=C2=A0 It was not until the new order arrived a few months ago a= nd I saw both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding the original=20= bottles from a few years ago that I would have ever discovered a problem.= =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if they c= an verify this conclusion. =C2=A0 As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remark= s are anticipated and relished.=C2=A0 Please though, no gee Chris, you sure=20= seem to be having a lot of problems.=C2=A0 Yes and No...I just like to share= more .=C2=A0 In the tradition of John Slade, share it all,=20 it can only help. Heck, this is the time to break things.=C2=A0 Much easier=20= to deal with now in my own hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse ye= t, in the air....even if my wallet is screaming. =C2=A0 So, the fun starts when???????? :-) =C2=A0 All the best, =C2=A0 Chris Barber Houston ----------MB_8CB4E1200D5498E_E0C_108D_MBLK-M32.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Guys,
If he is getting coolant around the o-rings at those temps there must be a p= roblem. The cars have 185=C2=B0F thermostats for crying out loud. 220 for a=20= short time should NOT kill the o-rings. I would check to be sure you hadn't=20= broken an engine stud. (Or two!) Often not replaced at rebuild they can brea= k.
Bill Jepson 


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh

Al,
 
I would like to agree with you that the temps Chris reported are not ve= ry likely to have harmed the o-rings, but if that is the case, why would he=20= be getting coolant into both chambers?  What else could cause that= to happen simultaneously?  My guess is that the o-rings got too hot an= d are now leaking.  
 
Mark S.  

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>= ; wrote:
Chris;
 
For every challenge we overcome, we g= et to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you're having lots of satisfaction opport= unities!
 
All other things being normal, my exp= erience would suggest that getting to 210 or 220 should not be a problem.&nb= sp; During initial testing, I had run my 20B temps to those levels a number=20= of times. No issue.
My concern would be whether or not th= e air was purged =E2=80=93 or that the temp read out was not correct. =20=
 
My cooling system bleeds out well, bu= t it does take at least one run up to temp, and then some added coolant.&nbs= p; On one occasion I had pumped air into the system to pressurize for leak test, and then forgot to purge that out before making some 'tuning' runs on= the ground.  Before the temp read over 200, I heard the thumping sound= of boiling. Yikes!  Apparently air at the temp pickup. Even that did n= ot result in any coolant leaks in the housings.
 
I recalibrated the temp channel on th= e EM2, had to change from the default numbers to get a correct reading. = ; If you haven't already checked calibration, it may be worth it. The thermi= ster is non-linear, so calibrate to a low end temp of about 130, and high en= d at 210 =E2=80=93 or whatever your local boiling point is. Using a measured= temp water container is most accurate.  I then checked my temp gun (py= rometer) on a spot of flat black paint at the pump outlet to double check.
 
Hang in there, buddy!
 
Al G
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircr= aft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 20= 09 10:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t
Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying=20= pan into the fire....Arrgh
 
Perhaps one day I will post with go= od news.  However, today is not the day. I have really been having some= fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode"= .  The engine and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the s= trakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.  (BTW, I may have di= scovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that later).
 
Since I have seemingly gotten=20= most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternators=20= charging and lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up=20= my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna=20= take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2=20= backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while I ti= ed up loose ends). 
 
Since I was about to send my comput= ers in and would not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't resist= pushing the plane out of the hangar and crank her up.  She started up=20= as expected.  I taxied around a bit making my "airplane" into a loud an= d expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after a few minutes as the temps st= arted to rise.
 
I let the bird20sit for a bit and w= anted to restart it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is sit= a bit more.  Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute a= nd remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last couple=20= of times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this engine= it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial run= . The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotor h= ousings. 
 
I took a big breath and went back t= o the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. =20= Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense Chrissi...I am= a man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure enoug= h I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid. =20= I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it= damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor and sa= me thing, but less liquid. Damn.
 
< SPAN style= =3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ok, when this happened to my rebuil= t first engine I blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  I= ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper sens= ors.  I really should have been surprised if I didn't fry it.  So,= when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end and center pla= tes etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine.  I TOOK EXTREME= care as to not to ever let it get too hot.  I would shut it down if it= got between 210 and 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before=20= I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds.  No= ne the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housi= ngs again.  I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchase= d from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illust= rated website).  It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too=20= hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through.  Oh, I sooooooo=20= hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared.  All the har= dware is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port.= ..I really was developing some power.....
 
I spoke with my engineer friend, B= laine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor= as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna lo= ok into what I missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, ch= eck the cooling system for proper flow again among other things.  Very=20= frustrating though.  I am, however, getting very good at removing=20= my engine from the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table i= n only about an hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I= can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, th= ere are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, thi= s is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much eas= ier to improve with the engine off.
 
Now to resign myself to yet another= engine build as we determine the why.
 
And, as to another "why".  I m= ay have determined=3D2 0why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes.  As loyal fans may remember I= had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them comple= tely a couple of months ago due to the Jeffco peeling away.  Well, as I= was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as to be ab= le to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottl= es.  Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700.=   Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700.&n= bsp; I remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent= the wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I ordered n= ew Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my stra= kes, however, in the new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were la= beled 9700.  My current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&= ;S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was= the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be th= e proper number.  It was not until the new order arrived a few months a= go and I saw both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding the origi= nal bottles from a few years ago that I would have ever discovered a problem= . 
 
I intend to send a email to the com= pany that bought Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.
 
As always y'all's insight, commenta= ry, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.&nbs= p; Please though, no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a lot of problems= .  Yes and No...I just like to share more <g>.  In the tradi= tion of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this is the time t= o break things.  Much easier to deal with now in my own hangar and not=20= on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my wallet is scre= aming.
 
So, the fun starts when???????? :-)=
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston


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