X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3453489 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:48:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090126194812.ZGLC12540.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:48:12 -0500 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.137.74]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 8KoB1b00C1cVYgg03KoBXB; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:48:11 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=XXnzcY-ln40A:10 a=TxJAxvb0G1sA:10 a=n2gTh5gjPjvkYmepWWkA:9 a=f6BCc59lje3f-Holy8UA:7 a=j9k-7Y5Gq8_nSn4QwkY-iDHRD0MA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=C35D7iIojSgA:10 a=9FaOLO-mhC037hmYVToA:9 a=gTgaCu8wikKQoSk0J44A:7 a=cuRe1PX8JjPM7h-xMd75-INfjMoA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:50:20 -0800 Message-ID: <305E10B216E9427CA8711CDF69981F7B@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C97FAC.4421AD50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C97FAC.4421AD50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris; =20 For every challenge we overcome, we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you're having lots of satisfaction opportunities! =20 All other things being normal, my experience would suggest that getting = to 210 or 220 should not be a problem. During initial testing, I had run = my 20B temps to those levels a number of times. No issue.=20 My concern would be whether or not the air was purged - or that the temp read out was not correct. =20 =20 My cooling system bleeds out well, but it does take at least one run up = to temp, and then some added coolant. On one occasion I had pumped air = into the system to pressurize for leak test, and then forgot to purge that = out before making some 'tuning' runs on the ground. Before the temp read = over 200, I heard the thumping sound of boiling. Yikes! Apparently air at = the temp pickup. Even that did not result in any coolant leaks in the = housings. =20 I recalibrated the temp channel on the EM2, had to change from the = default numbers to get a correct reading. If you haven't already checked calibration, it may be worth it. The thermister is non-linear, so = calibrate to a low end temp of about 130, and high end at 210 - or whatever your = local boiling point is. Using a measured temp water container is most = accurate. I then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) on a spot of flat black paint at = the pump outlet to double check. =20 Hang in there, buddy! =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh =20 Perhaps one day I will post with good news. However, today is not the = day. I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode". The engine and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my = Jeffco failure. (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that later). =20 Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in = the engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I = was gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today. I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy = to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while I tied up loose ends).=20 =20 Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run = the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar = and crank her up. She started up as expected. I taxied around a bit making = my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut down after a few minutes as the temps started to rise. =20 I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it. Hmmm, not = starting. Hmmmm. Let is sit a bit more. Try again. Still no joy. I sat there = for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the = last couple of times I ran the engine. UHOH! When I had to build this = engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial = run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotor housings.=20 =20 I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and be = a man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug and = take a look. Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had = a bit of liquid. I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the = hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it! Coolant in the housing. Checked the front = rotor and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. =20 Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I = was in a serious learning curve. I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with = a prop and without proper sensors. I really should have been surprised if = I didn't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new = housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new = engine. I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot. I would shut it down if it got between 210 and 220. ONE TIME it got to about 225 = degrees before I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of = seconds. None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings again. I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website). It is my understanding if that if the engine gets = too hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooo = hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared. All the hardware = is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I really was developing some power..... =20 I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor as well as building a = Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed. Verify that my = sensors are working properly, check the cooling system for proper flow again = among other things. Very frustrating though. I am, however, getting very = good at removing my engine from the plane. I had it off and sitting on the work table in only about an hour. I am not gonna crack the engine open yet = until I can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty. On a positive note, = there are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, = this is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so. They will be much easier to improve with the engine off. =20 Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the = why. =20 And, as to another "why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in = my fuel strakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months = ago due to the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700. I remember = specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I = returned it for the 9700. THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use = it and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order = BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700. My current thought is = that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad = Chris for assuming) that it was the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number. It was not until = the new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardener and resin = are both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years ago that I = would have ever discovered a problem. =20 =20 I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if = they can verify this conclusion. =20 As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished. Please though, no gee Chris, you = sure seem to be having a lot of problems. Yes and No...I just like to share = more . In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. = Heck, this is the time to break things. Much easier to deal with now in my = own hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even = if my wallet is screaming. =20 So, the fun starts when???????? :-) =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C97FAC.4421AD50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris;

 

For every challenge we overcome, = we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you’re having lots of satisfaction opportunities!

 

All other things being normal, my = experience would suggest that getting to 210 or 220 should not be a problem.  = During initial testing, I had run my 20B temps to those levels a number of = times. No issue.

My concern would be whether or = not the air was purged – or that the temp read out was not correct.  =

 

My cooling system bleeds out = well, but it does take at least one run up to temp, and then some added = coolant.  On one occasion I had pumped air into the system to pressurize for leak = test, and then forgot to purge that out before making some ‘tuning’ = runs on the ground.  Before the temp read over 200, I heard the thumping = sound of boiling. Yikes!  Apparently air at the temp pickup. Even that did not result = in any coolant leaks in the housings.

 

I recalibrated the temp channel = on the EM2, had to change from the default numbers to get a correct = reading.  If you haven’t already checked calibration, it may be worth it. The = thermister is non-linear, so calibrate to a low end temp of about 130, and high end = at 210 – or whatever your local boiling point is. Using a measured temp = water container is most accurate.  I then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) = on a spot of flat black paint at the pump outlet to double = check.

 

Hang in there, = buddy!

 

Al G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Sunday, January 25, = 2009 10:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh

 

Perhaps one day I will post = with good news.  However, today is not the day. I have really been = having some fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to = "flight prep mode".  The engine and wires have been my focus since I = had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.  = (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that = later).

 

Since I have seemingly = gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the = alternators charging and lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook = up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna = take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while = I tied up loose ends). 

 

Since I was about to send = my computers in and would not be able to run the engine for a while I = couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar and crank her up.  She = started up as expected.  I taxied around a bit making my = "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after a few = minutes as the temps started to rise.

 

I let the bird sit for a = bit and wanted to restart it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let = is sit a bit more.  Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute = and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last couple = of times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this = engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the = rotor housings. 

 

I took a big breath and = went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust = tip.  Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense = Chrissi...I am a man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure = enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid.  = I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor and = same thing, but less liquid. Damn.

 

Ok, when this happened to = my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  = I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper sensors.  I really should have been surprised if I didn't fry = it.  So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end and = center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine.  I TOOK = EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot.  I would shut it down if = it got between 210 and 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I = shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds.  None = the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings = again.  I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased = from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine = illustrated website).  It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too = hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through.  Oh, I = sooooooo hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was = spared.  All the hardware is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium = street port...I really was developing some power.....

 

I spoke with my engineer = friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major = factor as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna = look into what I missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, = check the cooling system for proper flow again among other things.  Very frustrating though.  I am, however, getting very good at = removing my engine from the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table = in only about an hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I = can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, there = are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, = this is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much = easier to improve with the engine off.

 

Now to resign myself to yet = another engine build as we determine the why.

 

And, as to another "why".  I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my = fuel strakes.  As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months = ago due to the Jeffco peeling away.  Well, as I was poking around the = hangar looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles.  = Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700.  Now, I = remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700.  I remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong = stuff and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, = but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in = the new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700.  My = current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was the correct one to = use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number.  It = was not until the new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the = hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few = years ago that I would have ever discovered a problem. 

 

I intend to send a email to = the company that bought Jeffco and see if they can verify this = conclusion.

 

As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.  Please though, no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having = a lot of problems.  Yes and No...I just like to share more = <g>.  In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this = is the time to break things.  Much easier to deal with now in my own = hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my wallet = is screaming.

 

So, the fun starts = when???????? :-)

 

All the = best,

 

Chris = Barber

Houston

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