X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3452497 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 02:05:32 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.187; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-171-208.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.171.208]) by mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n0Q74lYT003700 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:04:49 +1100 Message-ID: <7F66474465724269B37DA2393AD94A8D@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:04:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C97FD8.30C57440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090125-0, 25/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C97FD8.30C57440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris. If I'm reading right the O -rings will let water pass into the rotor = chamber in extreme heat conditions - never heard of that before, however = if that is correct it may be just that, without further issue. The hard starting would be the water IMHO. Run it few more times and keep it cool - even run a fan of it if you = have it out of the plane, however a prop should be enough. If in the end there is more water and it's been running cool, only then = pull it down again - in the mean time put some oil in the spark plug = hole. You don't want it rusting up. George (down under)=20 . ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:40 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Perhaps one day I will post with good news. However, today is not the = day. I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof = of concept mode" to "flight prep mode". The engine and wires have been = my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my = Jeffco failure. (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco = failure...more on that later). Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in = the engine running, the alternators charging and lights working = properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, = GPS's and audio panel today. I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 = to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped = working so I figured I would send it all in now while I tied up loose = ends).=20 Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run = the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the = hangar and crank her up. She started up as expected. I taxied around a = bit making my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut = down after a few minutes as the temps started to rise. I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it. Hmmm, not = starting. Hmmmm. Let is sit a bit more. Try again. Still no joy. I = sat there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a = second time the last couple of times I ran the engine. UHOH! When I = had to build this engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting = to start after an initial run. The first engine got too hot and was = leaking coolant into the rotor housings.=20 I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit = of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and = be a man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug = and take a look. Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two = and it had a bit of liquid. I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid = blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it! Coolant in the housing. = Checked the front rotor and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I = was in a serious learning curve. I ran it hot without a prop, too hot = with a prop and without proper sensors. I really should have been = surprised if I didn't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse = to buy new housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is = essentially a new engine. I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it = get too hot. I would shut it down if it got between 210 and 220. ONE = TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I shut it down and that was only = for a matter of couple of seconds. None the less something has happened = to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings again. I used what were = advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda = as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website). It is my = understanding if that if the engine gets too hot these "O" rings fail = and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just the "O" = rings and the hardware was spared. All the hardware is new and = professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I really = was developing some power..... I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation = business with R&D as a major factor as well as building a = Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed. = Verify that my sensors are working properly, check the cooling system = for proper flow again among other things. Very frustrating though. I = am, however, getting very good at removing my engine from the plane. I = had it off and sitting on the work table in only about an hour. I am = not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can get Blaine over for some = joint brain duty. On a positive note, there are a number of things at = the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is giving me the perfect = opportunity to do so. They will be much easier to improve with the = engine off. Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the = why. And, as to another "why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed = in my fuel strakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the = old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of = months ago due to the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around = the hangar looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it = easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. = Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, = I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700. I = remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the = wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700. THIS time I ordered new = Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my = strakes, however, in the new order BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were = labeled 9700. My current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&S = supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it = was the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew = to be the proper number. It was not until the new order arrived a few = months ago and I saw both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and = finding the original bottles from a few years ago that I would have ever = discovered a problem. =20 I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if = they can verify this conclusion. As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning = remarks are anticipated and relished. Please though, no gee Chris, you = sure seem to be having a lot of problems. Yes and No...I just like to = share more . In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can = only help. Heck, this is the time to break things. Much easier to deal = with now in my own hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, = in the air....even if my wallet is screaming. So, the fun starts when???????? :-) All the best, Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C97FD8.30C57440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris.
If I'm reading right the O -rings will = let water=20 pass into the rotor chamber in extreme heat conditions - never heard of = that=20 before, however if that is correct it may be just that, without further=20 issue.
The hard starting would be the water=20 IMHO.
Run it  few more times and keep it = cool - even=20 run a fan of it if you have it out of the plane, however a prop should = be=20 enough.
If in the end there is more water and = it's been=20 running cool, only then pull it down again - in the mean time put some = oil in=20 the spark plug hole. You don't want it rusting up.
George (down under) 
 
.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Barber =
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 = 4:40=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying pan = into the=20 fire....Arrgh

Perhaps one day I will post with good = news. =20 However, today is not the day. I have really been having some fun as I = move my=20 project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode".  The = engine=20 and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my = Velocity=20 following my Jeffco failure.  (BTW, I may have discovered the = reason for=20 my Jeffco failure...more on that later).
 
Since I have seemingly gotten = most my=20 electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternators = charging=20 and lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up my = Dynon=20 D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna = take out my=20 EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 = backlight=20 stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while I tied = up loose=20 ends). 
 
Since I was about to send my = computers in and=20 would not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't resist = pushing the=20 plane out of the hangar and crank her up.  She started up as=20 expected.  I taxied around a bit making my "airplane" into a loud = and=20 expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after a few minutes as the = temps=20 started to rise.
 
I let the bird sit for a bit and = wanted to=20 restart it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is sit a = bit=20 more.  Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute = and=20 remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last = couple of=20 times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this = engine it=20 was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial=20 run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into = the rotor=20 housings. 
 
I took a big breath and went back to = the=20 exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. =20 Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense = Chrissi...I am a=20 man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure = enough I=20 removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of = liquid.  I hand=20 turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it=20 damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor = and same=20 thing, but less liquid. Damn.
 
Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt = first engine=20 I blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  I ran it = hot=20 without a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper = sensors.  I=20 really should have been surprised if I didn't fry it.  So, when = it failed=20 it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end and center plates etc = and build=20 what was/is essentially a new engine.  I TOOK EXTREME care as to = not to=20 ever let it get too hot.  I would shut it down if it got between = 210 and=20 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I shut it down = and that=20 was only for a matter of couple of seconds.  None the less = something has=20 happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings again.  I = used what=20 were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing = (kinda=20 as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website).  It = is my=20 understanding if that if the engine gets too hot these "O" rings fail = and let=20 coolant seep through.  Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just the "O" = rings and=20 the hardware was spared.  All the hardware is new and = professionally=20 ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I really was developing = some=20 power.....
 
I spoke with my engineer friend, = Blaine, who owns=20 a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor as well = as=20 building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look = into what I=20 missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, check the = cooling=20 system for proper flow again among other things.  Very = frustrating=20 though.  I am, however, getting very good at removing my = engine from=20 the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table in only = about an=20 hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can get = Blaine=20 over for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, there are a = number=20 of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is giving = me the=20 perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much easier to = improve with=20 the engine off.
 
Now to resign myself to yet another = engine build=20 as we determine the why.
 
And, as to another "why".  I may = have=20 determined why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes.  As loyal = fans may=20 remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and = redo=20 them completely a couple of months ago due to the Jeffco peeling = away. =20 Well, as I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had = placed as=20 to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my = old Jeffco=20 bottles.  Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is = labeled=20 9700.  Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it = was=20 9700.  I remember specifically as when I first ordered from = AS&S they=20 sent the wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I = ordered=20 new Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for = my=20 strakes, however, in the new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the = Resin were=20 labeled 9700.  My current thought is that I used the Hardener = that=20 AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) = that it=20 was the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew = to be=20 the proper number.  It was not until the new order arrived a few = months=20 ago and I saw both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding = the=20 original bottles from a few years ago that I would have ever = discovered a=20 problem. 
 
I intend to send a email to the = company that=20 bought Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.
 
As always y'all's insight, = commentary, Wild ass=20 guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.  = Please=20 though, no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a lot of = problems.  Yes=20 and No...I just like to share more <g>.  In the tradition = of John=20 Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this is the time to break = things.  Much easier to deal with now in my own hangar and not on = some=20 deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my wallet is=20 screaming.
 
So, the fun starts when???????? = :-)
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
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