X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3440907 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:57:58 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.56; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.35]) by QMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 71in1b00H0lTkoCA68xRu1; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:57:25 +0000 Received: from osd1 ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 78xQ1b0020dkeQQ8Q8xQFV; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:57:25 +0000 Message-ID: <173450235C5148BEBA6634FDC14242E3@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:59:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0A02_01C97D5A.6D1B3CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0A02_01C97D5A.6D1B3CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hear you Ed. 15 psi is the size spring that came with the waste gate, = so that's where we start. I have an 11, 9, and 7 pound spring, and we = will be testing the whole range to get the optimum settings, on the = dyno. Main thing dictating max boost/horsepower, will be Tracy's = redrive, so our goal is 450 hp at take-off, with a little in reserve = just in case the trees are taller than we thought.......(:-) And now = you understand why we went with the belly scoop that I sent in pictures = of a couple of weeks ago. It's almost identical to the P-51 = configuration, and as I said, hopefully we'll use some of that heat you = talk about to create some thrust. The whole object was to get all = radiators and coolers out of the cowling. Only thing we're still = working on is the oil cooler exhaust, which goes straight out of the = bottom of the scoop. We are trying to decide whether or not to put a = cowl flap on that ala' P-51. We have a variable opening one on the = radiator side, so that's good, as well as allowing for refab if we need = a bigger radiator, after testing. The beat goes on..... Greg Lancair 20B in progress..... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Should be a fire belching dragon of an engine at over 15psi, Greg.=20 =20 15 Psi boost would be roughly 60" Hg of boost which at an A/F ratio = of 12 (assume you would run it a bit rich at those boost levels) would = give at 6000 rpm approx 550 HP burning 51 gph (more power at high rpm = and boost naturally) and producing a total of 25000 BTU/Min of heat to = be dumped through the radiator and oil cooler. Boy, you will produce = more heat energy that gets dumped through your oil cooler (8484 BTU/Min) = than my total (coolant and oil heat) entire engine puts out. Hope you = have big radiators and oil cooler {:>). =20 A couple of guys in South Carolina had a turbo 3 rotor that they = stated produced over 500 HP on the dyno. It flew, but unfortunately = only one flight, before one of the partners decided they were not true = experimenters and they decided to sell the project. It was really a = nice looking set up on a Lancair ES. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Hey Ed; We are running a 4088 Garrett hair dryer, starting at about 15# of = boost, and are extensively flow testing both the exhaust and induction = for best efficiency/output. That's why the pictures, show everything a = little bit different from what everyone else has done. Trying for = optimum runner length, as little back pressure as possible, early heat = removal, etc. Haven't got any real numbers down yet, until we (finally) = get on the dyno but based on what a stock 360hp Cosmo gets for mileage, = and going from there, we are convinced that fuel flows should be pretty = good. That's why they call it "experimental".....(:-) Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:42 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Hi Greg, well, if the fuel burn figure reported was correct - then = the HP figures I calculated are in the ball park. =20 We know the 3 rotor is capable of producing considerably more power = at sea level (per Al's dyno run with his 3 rotor) with the higher air = density. However, at altitude the upper limit would naturally be less = due to the less dense air to support combustion, unless you are running = some sort of forced induction as in a turbo, supercharger or perhaps = nitrous oxide chemical enhancement.=20 =20 But if the fuel burn was 15 gph, then it does not matter whether it = was a 2 rotor, 3 rotor or 1 rotor (a 1 rotor would really have to be = screaming to burn at that rate {:>)), the approx HP equation is: =20 HP =3D (Gallon/Hour) *( 6 lb gasoline/gallon ) /BSFC =3D 15*6/0.55 = =3D 90/0.55 =3D 163 HP. =20 Now if you choose a different BSFC such as 0.49 then you get a = better conversion. But, I tend to be conservative in my estimates. =20 Best Regards =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:20 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Agree to that. Our projections on the turbo 20B are much higher than = that. Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Ed; =20 Seems like your numbers are about 100 hp - or maybe one rotor - = too low. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:34 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Doug, at 15 gph at 6000 rpm, Mark would be making approx 165 HP, = perhaps a bit more, using a very conservative BSFC of 0.55. If you = assume a bit better BSFC of 0.49 it would be around 183 HP. =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of DLOMHEIM@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:38 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers =20 Mark: =20 Great story...thanks for posting it! At 6,000 rpm and 15 gph, how = many HP do you think you're developing? =20 Also, have you by chance flown side by side with another Lycoming = powered ES for comparison purposes? If so what did you learn? =20 We're going to have a couple of "burger burns" at our airport = ((2OK2) just east of Tinker AFB) this Spring / Summer, so maybe you'll = feel like going on a short cross country up this way and show our little = EAA chapter what a three rotor looks and sounds like?! =20 =20 Blue Skies =20 Doug RV-9A, 13B Organizing the hanger for Spring FWF and canopy work! =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy = steps! __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0A02_01C97D5A.6D1B3CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hear you Ed.  15 psi is the size = spring that=20 came with the waste gate, so that's where we start.  I have an 11, = 9, and 7=20 pound spring, and we will be testing the whole range to get the optimum=20 settings, on the dyno.  Main thing dictating max boost/horsepower, = will be=20 Tracy's redrive, so our goal is 450 hp at take-off, with a little in = reserve=20 just in case the trees are taller than we thought.......(:-)  And = now you=20 understand why we went with the belly scoop that I sent in pictures of a = couple=20 of weeks ago.  It's almost identical to the P-51 configuration, and = as I=20 said, hopefully we'll use some of that heat you talk about to create = some=20 thrust.  The whole object was to get all radiators and coolers out = of the=20 cowling.  Only thing we're still working on is the oil cooler = exhaust,=20 which goes straight out of the bottom of the scoop.  We are trying = to=20 decide whether or not to put a cowl flap on that ala' P-51.  We = have a=20 variable opening one on the radiator side, so that's good, as well as = allowing=20 for refab if we need a bigger radiator, after = testing.
The beat goes on.....
Greg
Lancair 20B in = progress.....
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 = 12:10=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was = : Mark's=20 BBQ Run / 20B numbers

Should be a = fire=20 belching dragon of an engine at over 15psi, Greg.=20

 

 15 = Psi boost=20 would be roughly 60=94 Hg of boost which at an A/F ratio of 12 (assume = you would=20 run it a bit rich at those boost levels) would give at 6000 rpm approx = 550 HP=20 burning 51 gph (more power  at high rpm and boost naturally) =  and=20 producing a total of  25000 BTU/Min of heat to be dumped through = the=20 radiator and oil cooler.  Boy, you will produce more heat energy = that=20 gets dumped through your oil cooler (8484 BTU/Min) than my total = (coolant and=20 oil heat) entire engine puts out.  Hope you have big radiators = and oil=20 cooler {:>).

 

A couple of = guys in=20 South=20 Carolina had a turbo 3 rotor that they stated = produced=20 over 500 HP on the dyno.  It flew, but unfortunately only one = flight,=20 before one of the partners decided they were not true experimenters = and they=20 decided to sell the project.  It was really a nice looking set up = on a=20 Lancair ES.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Greg Ward
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 = 10:53=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was = : Mark's=20 BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Hey=20 Ed;

We are running a 4088 Garrett hair dryer, = starting at=20 about 15# of boost, and are extensively flow testing both the exhaust = and=20 induction for best efficiency/output.  That's why the = pictures, show=20 everything a little bit different from what everyone else has = done. =20 Trying for optimum runner length, as little back pressure as possible, = early=20 heat removal, etc.  Haven't got any real numbers down yet, until = we=20 (finally) get on the dyno but based on what a stock 360hp Cosmo gets = for=20 mileage, and going from there, we are convinced that fuel flows should = be=20 pretty good.  That's why they call it=20 = "experimental".....(:-)

Greg

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Ed=20 Anderson

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Friday,=20 January 23, 2009 5:42 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B=20 numbers

 

Hi Greg, = well, if=20 the fuel burn figure reported was correct - then the HP figures I = calculated=20 are in the ball park.

 

We know = the 3 rotor=20 is capable of producing considerably more power at sea level (per = Al=92s dyno=20 run with his 3 rotor) with the higher air density.  =20  However, at altitude the upper limit would naturally be less = due to=20 the less dense air to support combustion, unless you are running = some sort=20 of forced induction as in a turbo, supercharger or perhaps nitrous = oxide=20 chemical enhancement.

 

 But = if the=20 fuel burn was 15 gph, then it does not matter whether it was a 2 = rotor, 3=20 rotor or 1 rotor (a 1 rotor would really have to be screaming to = burn at=20 that rate {:>)),  the approx HP equation=20 is:

 

HP =3D = (Gallon/Hour)=20 *( 6 lb gasoline/gallon ) /BSFC =3D 15*6/0.55 =3D 90/0.55 =3D 163=20 HP.

 

Now if = you choose a=20 different BSFC such as 0.49 then you get a better conversion.  = But, I=20 tend to be conservative in my = estimates.

 

Best=20 Regards

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Greg Ward
Sent: Friday, January 23, = 2009 12:20=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mark's BBQ Run=20 / 20B numbers

 

Agree to that. Our projections on the = turbo 20B are=20 much higher than = that.

Greg

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Al = Gietzen=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:13 = PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B=20 numbers

 

Ed;

 

Seems = like your=20 numbers are about 100 hp - or maybe one rotor =96 too=20 low.

 

Al=20 G

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, January 22, = 2009 8:34=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mark's BBQ=20 Run / 20B numbers

 

Doug, = at 15 gph=20 at 6000 rpm, Mark would be making approx 165 HP, perhaps a bit = more, using=20 a very conservative  BSFC of 0.55.  If you assume a bit = better=20 BSFC of 0.49 it would be around 183 = HP.

 

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A=20 N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= o:p>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of DLOMHEIM@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, = 2009 9:38=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Mark's = BBQ Run /=20 20B numbers

 

Mark:

 

Great=20 story...thanks for posting it!  At 6,000 rpm and 15 gph, how=20 many HP do you think you're=20 developing?

 

Also, = have you=20 by chance flown side by side with another Lycoming powered ES for=20 comparison purposes?  If so what did you=20 learn?

 

We're = going to=20 have a couple of "burger burns" at our airport ((2OK2) just = east of=20 Tinker AFB) this Spring / Summer, so maybe you'll feel like going = on a=20 short cross country up this way and show our little EAA = chapter=20 what a three rotor looks and sounds like?! =20

 

Blue=20 Skies

 

Doug

RV-9A, = 13B

Organizing the=20 hanger for Spring FWF and canopy = work!

 

A=20 Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See=20 yours in just 2 easy steps!



__________=20 Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature = database=20 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0A02_01C97D5A.6D1B3CC0--