X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3440779 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:10:59 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090123201020.DLXW28583.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:10:20 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:10:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C97D6C.B7BB3890" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Acl9cnr+D/3lBKrrTz2ELm56cbsrJAAIjBcg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20090123201020.DLXW28583.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C97D6C.B7BB3890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should be a fire belching dragon of an engine at over 15psi, Greg. 15 Psi boost would be roughly 60" Hg of boost which at an A/F ratio of 12 (assume you would run it a bit rich at those boost levels) would give at 6000 rpm approx 550 HP burning 51 gph (more power at high rpm and boost naturally) and producing a total of 25000 BTU/Min of heat to be dumped through the radiator and oil cooler. Boy, you will produce more heat energy that gets dumped through your oil cooler (8484 BTU/Min) than my total (coolant and oil heat) entire engine puts out. Hope you have big radiators and oil cooler {:>). A couple of guys in South Carolina had a turbo 3 rotor that they stated produced over 500 HP on the dyno. It flew, but unfortunately only one flight, before one of the partners decided they were not true experimenters and they decided to sell the project. It was really a nice looking set up on a Lancair ES. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Hey Ed; We are running a 4088 Garrett hair dryer, starting at about 15# of boost, and are extensively flow testing both the exhaust and induction for best efficiency/output. That's why the pictures, show everything a little bit different from what everyone else has done. Trying for optimum runner length, as little back pressure as possible, early heat removal, etc. Haven't got any real numbers down yet, until we (finally) get on the dyno but based on what a stock 360hp Cosmo gets for mileage, and going from there, we are convinced that fuel flows should be pretty good. That's why they call it "experimental".....(:-) Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:42 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Hi Greg, well, if the fuel burn figure reported was correct - then the HP figures I calculated are in the ball park. We know the 3 rotor is capable of producing considerably more power at sea level (per Al's dyno run with his 3 rotor) with the higher air density. However, at altitude the upper limit would naturally be less due to the less dense air to support combustion, unless you are running some sort of forced induction as in a turbo, supercharger or perhaps nitrous oxide chemical enhancement. But if the fuel burn was 15 gph, then it does not matter whether it was a 2 rotor, 3 rotor or 1 rotor (a 1 rotor would really have to be screaming to burn at that rate {:>)), the approx HP equation is: HP = (Gallon/Hour) *( 6 lb gasoline/gallon ) /BSFC = 15*6/0.55 = 90/0.55 = 163 HP. Now if you choose a different BSFC such as 0.49 then you get a better conversion. But, I tend to be conservative in my estimates. Best Regards Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:20 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Agree to that. Our projections on the turbo 20B are much higher than that. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Ed; Seems like your numbers are about 100 hp - or maybe one rotor - too low. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:34 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Doug, at 15 gph at 6000 rpm, Mark would be making approx 165 HP, perhaps a bit more, using a very conservative BSFC of 0.55. If you assume a bit better BSFC of 0.49 it would be around 183 HP. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of DLOMHEIM@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:38 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Mark: Great story...thanks for posting it! At 6,000 rpm and 15 gph, how many HP do you think you're developing? Also, have you by chance flown side by side with another Lycoming powered ES for comparison purposes? If so what did you learn? We're going to have a couple of "burger burns" at our airport ((2OK2) just east of Tinker AFB) this Spring / Summer, so maybe you'll feel like going on a short cross country up this way and show our little EAA chapter what a three rotor looks and sounds like?! Blue Skies Doug RV-9A, 13B Organizing the hanger for Spring FWF and canopy work! _____ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C97D6C.B7BB3890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Should be a fire belching dragon of = an engine at over 15psi, Greg.

 

 15 Psi boost would be roughly = 60” Hg of boost which at an A/F ratio of 12 (assume you would run it a bit = rich at those boost levels) would give at 6000 rpm approx 550 HP burning 51 gph = (more power  at high rpm and boost naturally)  and producing a total = of  25000 BTU/Min of heat to be dumped through the radiator and oil cooler.  = Boy, you will produce more heat energy that gets dumped through your oil = cooler (8484 BTU/Min) than my total (coolant and oil heat) entire engine puts = out.  Hope you have big radiators and oil cooler = {:>).

 

A couple of guys in South Carolina had a turbo 3 rotor = that they stated produced over 500 HP on the dyno.  It flew, but = unfortunately only one flight, before one of the partners decided they were not true = experimenters and they decided to sell the project.  It was really a nice looking = set up on a Lancair ES.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward
Sent: Friday, January 23, = 2009 10:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Hey = Ed;

We are running a 4088 Garrett hair dryer, = starting at about 15# of boost, and are extensively flow testing both the exhaust = and induction for best efficiency/output.  That's why the = pictures, show everything a little bit different from what everyone else has done.  Trying = for optimum runner length, as little back pressure as possible, early heat = removal, etc.  Haven't got any real numbers down yet, until we (finally) get = on the dyno but based on what a stock 360hp Cosmo gets for mileage, and going = from there, we are convinced that fuel flows should be pretty good.  = That's why they call it = "experimental".....(:-)

Greg

=

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: Friday, = January 23, 2009 5:42 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Hi Greg, well, if the fuel burn = figure reported was correct - then the HP figures I calculated are in the ball = park.

 

We know the 3 rotor is capable of producing considerably more power at sea level (per Al’s dyno run = with his 3 rotor) with the higher air density.    However, at altitude the upper limit would naturally be less due to the less dense = air to support combustion, unless you are running some sort of forced induction = as in a turbo, supercharger or perhaps nitrous oxide chemical enhancement. =

 

 But if the fuel burn was 15 = gph, then it does not matter whether it was a 2 rotor, 3 rotor or 1 rotor (a = 1 rotor would really have to be screaming to burn at that rate {:>)), =  the approx HP equation is:

 

HP =3D (Gallon/Hour) *( 6 lb = gasoline/gallon ) /BSFC =3D 15*6/0.55 =3D 90/0.55 =3D 163 = HP.

 

Now if you choose a different BSFC = such as 0.49 then you get a better conversion.  But, I tend to be = conservative in my estimates.

 

Best = Regards

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward
Sent: Friday, January 23, = 2009 12:20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Agree to that. Our projections on the turbo = 20B are much higher than that.

Greg

=

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Al = Gietzen

Sent: = Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:13 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Ed;

 

Seems like your numbers are about = 100 hp - or maybe one rotor – too low.

 

Al G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, January = 22, 2009 8:34 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Doug, at 15 gph = at 6000 rpm, Mark would be making approx 165 HP, perhaps a bit more, using a = very conservative  BSFC of 0.55.  If you assume a bit better BSFC = of 0.49 it would be around 183 HP.

 

 

Ed<= o:p>

 

Ed = Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= o:p>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of DLOMHEIM@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January = 22, 2009 9:38 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers

 

Mark:

 

Great story...thanks for posting it!  At 6,000 rpm and 15 gph, how = many HP do you think you're developing?

 

Also, have you by chance flown side by side with another Lycoming powered ES = for comparison purposes?  If so what did you = learn?

 

We're going to have a couple of "burger burns" at our airport = ((2OK2) just east of Tinker AFB) this Spring / Summer, so maybe you'll feel like = going on a short cross country up this way and show our little EAA = chapter what a three rotor looks and sounds like?!  =

 

Blue Skies

 

Doug

RV-9A, 13B

Organizing the hanger for Spring FWF and canopy work!

 

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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