X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3328378 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:35:04 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.171; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so3798978wfa.25 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:34:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ZbxXrKn9bwlY6qJ4GeaLQy31y7jInjha3uWMEF/dUBQ=; b=a7E3FN5RFdO9KS1Qs69dnTvJqHYxns7AwavEMDTMixreXZr8lA1YlJDt+u2BgIlmuR UTEWp0zuwqUmMyEkYv7N9nktki0rglGL3fQSyZLYcivKgTKhWKYbW7H+UqgHoAXgtMhF vdnKN3ZocLPk5/93j/AVl/QEE6OFAal8Xt6zI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gCe+4ki44vs3/PSRfG04XbCek4nNZZaGjwx9bGkEBeCH0R1ZFBG1S492Pm8DxRZ79o XFaqrkynyWqfCbm3B0DQSprXaJdexF5cM888XaiODs98H3vVxns7nHU6HWqOPMh25bMg KtBe0EnDMqMcnixzvww6nomOBWraKLW1fSY3U= Received: by 10.115.90.1 with SMTP id s1mr8192198wal.15.1228311267225; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.131.4 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:34:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0812030534m4f43291xeb87040e1c30a49c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:34:27 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel system In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_66664_10794533.1228311267234" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: b7e7102a28a0cd1c ------=_Part_66664_10794533.1228311267234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Charlies' suggestion of the Facet transfer pump is what I've been using. I use a 'T' in the fuel return line to the main tank for the transfer pump so it didn't even require an additional fitting in the tank (above what is necessary for EFI). The Facet has a check valve function internally. There really is not a simpler system that I am aware of. Yes, it has the 'failure mode' of dumping fuel out of the main tank vent if you forget to turn off the transfer pump, but that's not nearly as bad as forgetting the tank selector valve is on the 'almost empty tank' during takeoff in a conventional system. I do have a Fuel Transfer timer in the EM2 monitor to help me remember. The Andair valve is a good solution if money is no object and you don't mind the additional plumbing. Tracy Crook On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Charlie England wrote: > I should have added that if you're willing to risk your life on a (gasp) > automotive part, you can get a 'motor driven' (electric activated) fuel > selector/return switch intended for dual tank fuel injected pickup trucks > for a LOT less money. Browse the aviation section of JC Whitney or other > aftermarket suppliers. > > My personal preference would be the Facet transfer pump with check valve. > While it looks more complicated, the only complication to operational flying > safety is the added transfer fitting on the main tank. The functional fuel > system remains the single tank & a transfer pump failure just shortens > range, detectable as soon as you try to transfer fuel to main. > > Charlie > > > Charlie England wrote: > >> There's that, and the fact that in today's unbelievably tight credit >> market, you might not be able to get a loan for one. ;-) >> >> Charlie >> >> Bill Schertz wrote: >> >>> Consider using an ANDAIR duplex valve. It takes fuel from one tank and >>> returns it to the same tank. Turn it and it takes and returns to the other >>> tank. Simple in operation, but requires more plumbing. >>> Bill Schertz >>> KIS Cruiser #4045 >>> N343BS >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "randy echtinaw" < >>> rjechtinaw@toast.net> >>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:50 PM >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel system >>> >>> >>> Al, >>>> That was my first thought to just drain the smaller tank into the >>>> larger with a simple 1/4 turn on/off but I would have to run the main at >>>> least 1/2 empty for this to work. I cannot fly ackro with less than 6 >>>> gallons in the main tank. I cannot fly ackro at all with fuel in the smaller >>>> tank so by the time the smaller tank emptied I would have little fuel >>>> remaining in the larger tank. I even considered a small transfer pump to >>>> fill the larger tank but I am again creating complexity. >>>> All input here is welcome :)) >>>> Thanks, >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> >>>> On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: >>>> >>>> Randy; >>>>> >>>>> Is the positioning of the tanks such that you could gravity feed the >>>>> small >>>>> tank into the big tank? Then you could return to the larger tank - and >>>>> eliminate the selector valve. >>>>> >>>>> Al G >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of randy echtinaw >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:59 PM >>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel system >>>>> >>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>> Because a large majority of homebuilt problems are fuel related I >>>>> am trying to make my system as simple as possible. This is a biplane >>>>> with a 20 gal. and a 10 gal. tank in front of the inst. panel, RX-8 >>>>> engine. >>>>> The only "known" problem I have at the moment is my fuel return. I >>>>> would like it to return to the main tank only. This would mean burning >>>>> off 2-3 gallons from the main tank before switching to the 2nd tank. >>>>> But, this might mean I am setting myself up for a future "pilot error" >>>>> in fuel management. If I return to both tanks I would need another >>>>> selector and cockpit control which is making the system more >>>>> complicated and, again, potential "pilot error." So, suggestions . . . >>>>> Thank you very much, >>>>> Randy >>>>> >>>> > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > ------=_Part_66664_10794533.1228311267234 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Charlies' suggestion of the Facet transfer pump is what I've been using.  I use a 'T' in the fuel return line to the main tank for the transfer pump so it didn't even require an additional fitting in the tank (above what is necessary for EFI).  The Facet has a check valve function internally. There really is not a simpler system that I am aware of.

   Yes, it has the 'failure mode' of dumping fuel out of the main tank vent if you forget to turn off the transfer pump, but that's not nearly as bad as forgetting the tank selector valve is on the 'almost empty tank' during takeoff in a conventional system.  I do have a Fuel Transfer timer in the EM2 monitor to help me remember. 

   The Andair valve is a good solution if money is no object and you don't mind the additional plumbing.

Tracy Crook


On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I should have added that if you're willing to risk your life on a (gasp) automotive part, you can get a 'motor driven' (electric activated) fuel selector/return switch intended for dual tank fuel injected pickup trucks for a LOT less money. Browse the aviation section of JC Whitney or other aftermarket suppliers.

My personal preference would be the Facet transfer pump with check valve. While it looks more complicated, the only complication to operational flying safety is the added transfer fitting on the main tank. The functional fuel system remains the single tank & a transfer pump failure just shortens range, detectable as soon as you try to transfer fuel to main.

Charlie


Charlie England wrote:
There's that, and the fact that in today's unbelievably tight credit market, you might not be able to get a loan for one. ;-)

Charlie

Bill Schertz wrote:
Consider using an ANDAIR duplex valve. It takes fuel from one tank and returns it to the same tank. Turn it and it takes and returns to the other tank. Simple in operation, but requires more plumbing.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
----- Original Message ----- From: "randy echtinaw" <rjechtinaw@toast.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel system


Al,
  That was my first thought to just drain the smaller tank into the larger with a simple 1/4 turn on/off but I would have to run the main  at least 1/2 empty for this to work. I cannot fly ackro with less than  6 gallons in the main tank. I cannot fly ackro at all with fuel in the smaller tank so by the time the smaller tank emptied I would have  little fuel remaining in the larger tank. I even considered a small  transfer pump to fill the larger tank but I am again creating  complexity.
All input here is welcome :))
Thanks,
---------------------------------

On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Al Gietzen wrote:

Randy;

Is the positioning of the tanks such that you could gravity feed the small
tank into the big tank? Then you could return to the larger tank - and
eliminate the selector valve.

Al G

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]  On
Behalf Of randy echtinaw
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel system

Gentlemen,
 Because a large majority of homebuilt problems are fuel related I
am trying to make my system as simple as possible. This is a biplane
with a 20 gal. and a 10 gal. tank in front of the inst. panel, RX-8
engine.
The only "known" problem I have at the moment is my fuel return. I
would like it to return to the main tank only. This would mean burning
off 2-3 gallons from the main tank before switching to the 2nd tank.
But, this might mean I am setting myself up for a future "pilot error"
in fuel management. If I return to both tanks I would need another
selector and cockpit control which is making the system more
complicated and, again, potential "pilot error." So, suggestions . . .
Thank you very much,
Randy


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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