X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-2.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTPS id 3327435 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:17:22 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.29; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-2.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.29]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:16:47 -0800 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:16:48 -0800 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Hose and Expansion Tank ... was Hose Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Hose and Expansion Tank ... was Hose Thread-Index: AclUtkJtv8AVE1S7RgaqqUCioxbe+QAASy+Q Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132CD5260EXVMBX0035exc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132CD5260EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If there is any doubt about the hose I'll remove it ... I would never have = guessed how that expansion tank is working with this setup. Originally I wanted the tank to be the highest point in the system and be c= onnected to the inlet side of the pump where pressures are lower and it wou= ld make an ideal filling point for entire system; however, there isn't enou= gh height under the cowl to mount it above the water pump outlet. During first flight the pressure got pegged to >20 psi > cap pressure ... I= removed that cap and put back the old one at 16 psi ... now if the system = is pressurized through the snifter valve it is regulated at 16 psi by the c= ap, as I would expect. So I relieved the pressure to 10 psi and ground-oper= ated the engine; it pressurized and regulated itself back to 16 psi from 13= 0F water temp all the way up to 200F water temp ... but what is startling i= s that the tank is actually cool to the touch ... the water pump is hot, ra= diator and its hoses are hot ... hot pressurized air is exiting the engine = through that hose and 1 cup of coolant but having very little temperature e= ffect on either ... I love it ... I believe the system is working perfectly= and don't see any reason to operate at pressure above 16 psi. Jeff (Just waiting for the weekend and flight #2) From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Hose was Re: First Flight, short and hot Jeff, you might check with Tracy Crook. Way back when, he attempted to use= some clear plastic/nylon cored reinforced hose for his coolant system for = the same reason (I think) - so you could see what was going on. As best I = recall, it was not up to the task due to heat and pressure - but these were= the main line hoses and not just to the header tank. I can not recall the type - but think he got them at the local hardware sto= re. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:03 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight, short and hot Thanks Kelly, I copied (Bill Eslick's) installation (seen at Round-up) and = the see-through aspect of that hose was a major selling point; it's easy to= see whether there's air or fluid in the line, which is very helpful ... id= eally there should be fluid in the line and about 1 cup in the expansion ta= nk; I suppose removing the cap would provide same information ... but the t= ank has to be de-pressurized, cap removed and re-pressurized before flight. Bill any comments on durability of that hose? Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] First Flight, short and hot Jeff, You might keep an eye on the plastic hose goinng to the bottom of your expansion tank..........This particular hose is not durable and under the h= igh heat under the cowl (perhaps not during your Canadian winter) might have a short service life..........Project looks great and am looking forward to= all further flight test info.......... -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from Jeff Whaley : --= ------------ Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments ... attached is a picture= of expansion tank and preflight roll-out ... the orange line is fuel retur= n; the brass is pressure gauge pickup and snifter valve installation. After reading Eds' email I now know why the water temperature was so high. = I installed a thermostat with the onset of cold weather, but I couldn't us= e the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes acros= s the bypass hole. Originally the bypass hole was plugged and there was no= thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermo= stat !! ... so that's why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is so long!= Thanks Ed for setting me straight and based on your comment about 20% loss= of efficiency, I could possibly see 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on next f= light ... that would be great! For now the thermostat is gone and bypass is= re-plugged. Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on underside of top cowl= ing suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by friction. I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut ... what's the= secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It's so tight I'm afraid of dam= aging something trying to get it off. Jeff --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132CD5260EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If there is any doubt about the hose I’ll remove it &#= 8230; I would never have guessed how that expansion tank is working with this set= up.

Originally I wanted the tank to be the highest point in the system and be connected to the inlet side of the pump where pressures are l= ower and it would make an ideal filling point for entire system; however, there = isn’t enough height under the cowl to mount it above the water pump outlet.<= /o:p>

During first flight the pressure got pegged to >20 psi &g= t; cap pressure … I removed that cap and put back the old one at 16 psi = … now if the system is pressurized through the snifter valve it is regulated = at 16 psi by the cap, as I would expect. So I relieved the pressure to 10 psi = and ground-operated the engine; it pressurized and regulated itself back to 16 = psi from 130F water temp all the way up to 200F water temp … but what is start= ling is that the tank is actually cool to the touch … the water pump is ho= t, radiator and its hoses are hot … hot pressurized air is exiting the engine thr= ough that hose and 1 cup of coolant but having very little temperature effect on= either … I love it … I believe the system is working perfectly and don= ’t see any reason to operate at pressure above 16 psi.

Jeff

(Just waiting for the weekend and flight #2)

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anders= on
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hose was Re: First Flight, short and hot

 

Jeff, you might check with Tracy Crook.  Way back when, he attempted to use some clear plastic/nylon cored reinforced hose for his coo= lant system for the same reason (I think) – so you could see what was goin= g on.  As best I recall, it was not up to the task due to heat and press= ure – but these were the main line hoses and not just to the header tank. 

 

I can not recall the type – but think he got them at the local hardware store.

 

Ed

 

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.c= om

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW<= /o:p>

http://www.d= mack.net/mazda/index.html

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whal= ey
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:03 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight, short and hot

 

Thanks Kelly, I copied (Bill Eslick’s) installation (s= een at Round-up) and the see-through aspect of that hose was a major selling po= int; it’s easy to see whether there’s air or fluid in the line, whic= h is very helpful … ideally there should be fluid in the line and about 1 = cup in the expansion tank; I suppose removing the cap would provide same information … but the tank has to be de-pressurized, cap removed and re-pressurized before flight.

Bill any comments on durability of that hose?

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Tro= yer
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:24 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] First Flight, short and hot

 

   Jeff,

    You might keep an eye on the plasti= c hose goinng to the bottom of your

expansion tank..........This particular hose is not du= rable and under the high

heat under the cowl (perhaps not during your Canadian winter) might have

a short service life..........Project looks great and = am looking forward to all

further flight test info..........

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

-------------- Original= message from Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com>: --------------

Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments … attached is a picture of expansion tank and preflight roll-out … the orange line is fuel return; the brass is pressure gauge pickup and snifter valve installation.

After reading Eds’ email I now know why the water temperature was so high.  I installed a thermostat with the onset of c= old weather, but I couldn’t use the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes across the bypass hole.  Originally the byp= ass hole was plugged and there was no thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermostat !! … so that’s why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is so long! Thanks Ed for setting me stra= ight and based on your comment about 20% loss of efficiency, I could possibly se= e 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight … that would be great! Fo= r now the thermostat is gone and bypass is re-plugged.

Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on unders= ide of top cowling suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by fricti= on.

I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut … what’s the secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It̵= 7;s so tight I’m afraid of damaging something trying to get it off.<= /o:p>

Jeff

 

 

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